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Old 04-07-2007, 10:14 AM   #1
Earth-Fury
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Default How to ask for help without annoying the people that help you

Earth-Fury's Constructive Rant Tutorial

This is currently a work-in-progress. Criticism is not only appreciated, but needed.

Preface
This tutorial comes from me being pissed off a lot while browsing the Triggers & Scripts and General Development forums. What pisses me off? People asking for help in a manner that makes my hobby of helping people painful, and people asking for big handouts. Essentially, people unwilling to help people help them, and people unwilling to learn.

You are asking people to help you. People who don't have to help you. People who take time away from their own projects to be part of the community. If you want help, there is something more important than anything else you must do. It is the main message in this tutorial: it is to help those that want to help you to help you!

And please, read the rules. They exist for a reason.

The 5 Things You Should Do When Posting a Thread
So, you have a problem, or don't know how to do something. Go to the forum that best suits what your question is about, and post a thread! But don't post a bad thread that makes it hard to help you. Here are some 'rules' you should follow:
  1. Read your post. Is it typed in a way that is easy to understand? Are terms that are not known to all defined? Is it riddled with typos?
  2. Write out as many details as you can about the effect you want to achieve or the problem you are having. Write down every detail!
  3. Tell people what you have tried to do to obtain the desired effect, or solve the current issue. You don't always need to post a screen shot, a trigger, or snippet of code. But, when you really think it is where the issue lays, and it can better communicate what you want to do / what's wrong then words can, then please do post it.
  4. Make the thread's title describe your issue. This may seem small, but it helps those that help you. And that makes people like me quicker to help you if we can.
  5. Re-read your thread, and make sure you have followed the previous 4 points.
The 5 Things You Should Do When Continuing a Thread
So, your thread is posted! If it follows all the rules in the previous section, you shouldn't have to worry about continuing the thread. But, sometimes, you need to clarify something, or you want to expand upon your question. Here are some more rules you should follow:
  1. The exact same as the last section. Read your post. Is it typed in a way that is easy to understand? Are terms that are not known to all defined? Is it riddled with typos?
  2. Are you communicating what you want explained, or what you need help understanding? We are not psychic, we need you to explain what you mean!
  3. Post what you have tried relating to previous suggestions or information people have given you. Nothing is more annoying then posting a nice example or answer to the response of “tried it, didn't do what i want”
  4. Remember that people who are here trying to help you may know things you do not. That's not a bad thing, but ignoring their experience is likely to make them not waste their time on you. Try to take what experienced users say, and use that information to learn how to make your own map.
  5. Re-read your post. Make sure you have followed these rules.
The 4 Things You Must Never Do
  1. Double post. This means posting directly after yourself. There is the exception to this rule, and that is bumping. See #2.
  2. Bump a thread before it has left idle for 48 hours. If a thread has had no replies for 2 days or so, it's ok to bump it.
  3. Revive a thread after a few weeks. If a thread is a few weeks old, do no reply to it.
  4. Insult people that try to help you. This should be higher up on the list, but its likely to get you banned. So don't do it.
Example Threads
Here are some examples of bad threads, and some examples of good threads:
Bad Example:
Thread Title: hi guyz hepl me plz!!!!!
Thread Body: hi guyz cn u make me a ultimate speel time annhilation from nmk i dont kno jass guyz so dont giveme any jass ok plz plz guyz i really need it 4 this naruto warz map me and my friends r making

just make it 4 me cuz i really need it

If you can not see why that is a bad thread, read the rules again. Little information is given, and it is near illegible. A large number of helpful people will simply ignore such a post, because it's impossible to help someone from such a post! And as a small side note: Smiles are meant to enhance words. Don't over use them.

Good Example:
Thread Title: Need help creating a spell that freezes all units on the map
Thread Body: Hello, I'm new to these forums, and I have a question regarding how to make a spell that is/does the following:
  • Is channeling
  • Has a cast time
  • Freezes every unit of each enemy player on the map
  • Destroys a random building of each player
  • Creates a weather effect on the map

If this sounds familiar to some of you, it is based off of the spell "Time Annihilation" in the map Nautical Marine Knights. I liked the spell, so I decided to make a version of it for myself.

I know that JASS is an advanced scripting language (or something of that sort) for Warcraft 3, but it's something I don't understand. Thus, I would prefer help via GUI commands.

I've gotten the channeling part down, created the weather effect, I've give it a cast time, and I'm using dummy units to cast storm bolt on units to get them to be stopped, but I still have the following problems:
  • The units are still animated when they're stunned
  • I don't know how to destroy a random building
  • My dummy units stay, and only one of them gets removed at the end of the spell

Here's what I've got so far:
Some trigger:
Collapse Events
Unit - A unit starts the effect of an ability
Collapse Conditions
(Ability being cast) equal to Time Rift
Collapse Actions
---- Some actions here, etc. This tutorial is not concerned with what is written; only that something is written. ----
How would I fix my above problems? Examples along with explanations would be appreciated!

What's different about this thread? A lot of information is given. It's written well, and easy to read. It defines the problem, what has been tried, and is kind to those that read it. While asking for a handout, it is obvious the poster is interested in learning and trying to improve their own skills. This is the type of post I sometimes give people rep for.

Reputation
'Rep' is a good way to see how helpful a person has been in the past. It's not a judging of skill or knowledge, only how good a community member someone is or tries to be. Don't presume someone has less knowledge because they have less reputation, or a lower post count.

While on this subject, let me mention that posting "thank you" is a rather silly thing to do. The reputation system exists so you can show people thanks by giving them reputation. It is also a nice place to leave a comment with your thanks.

How This Tutorial Helps Helpful People
Tired of answering questions with more questions, just to be able to help someone? Tired of dealing with people unwilling to do things for themselves? Tired of people who are just pricks? Well then, link them here, and tell them to learn how to post before they try doing it again. It's your hobby to help people. Don't let them make it suck.

Credits to Pyrogasm for the example threads.
Credits to Griffen for ideas.
Credits to wyrmlord for spell checking help.
Credits to Rising_Dusk for spell checking help.
Credits to PurgeandFire111 for spelling and grammar fixes.
Credits to the stupid people who pissed me off enough to write a tutorial.

Edit History:
Edited because: Edited for content, formatting, and a few spelling and grammar errors.
Edited because: Edited for mostly funny and ironic spelling errors.
Edited because: [list]'ed my lists.
Edited because: Minor spelling fixes.
Edited because: Fixed more spelling and grammar errors.
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Last edited by Earth-Fury : 05-02-2007 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 04-07-2007, 03:12 PM   #2
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lol
*nice* topic ^^

quite good ^^ but i doubt the persons who should read this will read this -.-
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Old 04-07-2007, 04:33 PM   #3
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Exactly as ^ said.
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Give +REP to people who help you with things or make good resources.
Better Ways of Requesting For Help - Race Contest #2 WIP Thread (Bone Race)
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Old 04-08-2007, 12:20 AM   #4
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Stuff to add:

I have noticed a lot of the time we give an answer, the nub in question brushes it off, and then we repeat the first answer several times until he checks it out and realises it actually is right, possibly due to him not understanding first time, or, worse, not reading properly.

Also, you ought to add in to bear in mind that the people you are asking the help of may be aware of facts you aren't, so don't call them stuff like stupid, because, most of the time when people do that, it turns out they were being retarded and the person giving the help just knew something they didn't.
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Griffen is correct, you are not.
Quote:
[13:32] <Akolyt0r> hmm.. stil i want to have some unused women
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Old 04-08-2007, 12:43 AM   #5
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I would suggest including examples of "bad" thread starters, and "good" thread starters. For example:

Bad Help Thread:
Thread Title:hi guyz hepl me plz!!!!!

Thread Body:
hi guyz cn u make me a ultimate speel time annhilation from nmk i dont kno jass guyz so dont giveme any jass ok plz plz guyz i really need it 4 this naruto warz map me and my friends r making

just make it 4 me cuz i really need it

Good Help Thread:
Thread Title:Need help creating a spell that freezes all units on the map

Thread Body:
Hello, I'm new to these forums, and I have a question regarding how to make a spell that is/does the following:
  • Is channeling
  • Has a cast time
  • Freezes every unit of each enemy player on the map
  • Destroys a random building of each player
  • Creates a weather effect on the map

If this sounds familiar to some of you, it is based off of the spell "Time Annhilation" in the map Nautical Marine Knights. I liked the spell, so I decided to make a version of it for myself.

I know that JASS is an advanced scripting language (or something of that sort) for Warcraft 3, but it's something I don't understand. Thus, I would prefer help via GUI commands.

I've gotten the channeling part down, created the weather effect, I've give it a cast time, and I'm using dummy units to cast storm bolt on units to get them to be stopped, but I still have the following problems:
  • The units are still animated when they're stunned
  • I don't know how to destroy a random building
  • My dummy units stay, and only one of them gets removed at the end of the spell

Here's what I've got so far:
Some trigger:
Collapse Events
Unit - A unit starts the effect of an ability
Collapse Conditions
(Ability being cast) equal to Time Rift
Collapse Actions
---- Some actions here, etc. This tutorial is not concerned with what is written, only that something is written. ----
How would I fix my above problems? Examples along with explainations would be appreciated!

NOTE: These are not real threads.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Rising_Dusk
Your spells are mostly ignored because they are not very cool so we aren't very excited to review/approve them, but you are incredibly persistent and won't give us an excuse to graveyard it. That is generally what results in a resource being ignored for a long time.

The Spell Request ThreadDone for, unless someone else wants to revive it...
It lasted a damn long time.

Please; Ask for Help Appropriately














Quote:
Originally posted by Kyrbi0
Huh. Almost makes me wish I had a girlfriend, to take advantage of today (wait, no, that's not what I meant... I mean, take advantage of the fact that it is international women's day... gah, never mind).
Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrogasm
Rome may not have been built in a day, but the Romans sure as hell didn't say "look at this great city we built guys!" when they had nothing more than a bit of stone and some cottages.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:13 AM   #6
Earth-Fury
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I could use a proof-read of the thing for spelling and grammer, if anyones up to the task. (My language skills suck too much)
Full Tutorial unparsed



[size="5"][b][color="Sienna"]Earth-Fury's[/color] [color="Orange"]Constructive Rant Tutorial[/color][/b][/size]

This is currently a work-in-progress. Criticism is not only appreciated, but needed.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]Preface[/color][/b][/size]
This tutorial comes from me being pissed off a lot while browsing the Triggers & Scripts and Deneral Development forums. What pisses me off? People asking for help in a manner that makes my hobby of helping people painful, or people asking for big handouts. Essentially, people unwilling to help people help them, and people unwilling to learn.

You are asking people to help you. People who don't have to help you. People who take time away from their own projects to be part of the community. If you want help, there is something more important than anything else you must do. It is the main message in this tutorial: it is to help those that want to help you to help you!

And please, read the [url=http://wc3campaigns.net/faq.php?faq=wc3c_revived#faq_wc3c_revised_rules]rules[/url]. They exist for a reason.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]The 5 Things You Should Do When Posting a Thread[/color][/b][/size]
So, you have a problem, or don't know how to do something. Go to the forum that best suits what your question is about, and post a thread! But don't post a bad thread that makes it hard to help you. Here are some 'rules' you should follow:

[b][color="Red"]1:[/color][/b] Read your post. Is it typed in a way that is easy to understand? Are terms that are not known to all defined? Is it riddled with typos?
[b][color="Red"]2a:[/color][/b] Write out as many details as you can about the effect you want to achieve. Write down every detail!
[b][color="Red"]2b:[/color][/b] Write out as many details as you can about the problem you are having.
[b][color="Red"]3:[/color][/b] Tell people what you have tried to do to obtain the desired effect, or solve the current issue. You don't always need to post a screen shot, a trigger, or snippet of code. But, when you really think it is where the issue lays, and it can better communicate what you want to do / whats wrong then words can, then please do post it.
[b][color="Red"]4:[/color][/b] Make the thread's title describe your issue. This may seem small, but it helps those that help you. And that makes people like me quicker to help you if we can.
[b][color="Red"]5:[/color][/b] Re-read your thread, and make sure you have followed the previous 4 points.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]The 5 Things You Should Do When Continuing a Thread[/color][/b][/size]
So, you're thread is posted! If it follows all the rules in the previous section, you shouldn't have to worry about continuing the thread. But, sometimes, you need to clarify something, or you want to expand upon your question. Here are some more rules you should follow:

[b][color="Red"]1:[/color][/b] The exact same as the last section. Read your post. Is it typed in a way that is easy to understand? Are terms that are not known to all defined? Is it riddled with typos?
[b][color="Red"]2:[/color][/b] Are you communicating what you want explained, or what you need help understanding? We are not psychic, we need you to explain what you mean!
[b][color="Red"]3:[/color][/b] Post what you have tried relating to previous suggestions or information people have given you. Nothing is more annoying then posting a nice example or answer to the response of “tried it, didn't do what i want”
[b][color="Red"]4:[/color][/b] Remember that people who are here trying to help you may know things you do not. Thats not a bad thing, but ignoring their experiance is likely to make them not waste their time on you. Try to take what experianced users say, and use that information to learn how to make your own map.
[b][color="Red"]5:[/color][/b] Re-read your post. Make sure you have followed these rules.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]The 4 Things You Must Never Do[/color][/b][/size]
[b][color="Red"]1:[/color][/b] Double post. This means posting directly after yourself. There is the exception to this rule, and that is bumping. See #2.
[b][color="Red"]2:[/color][/b] Bump a thread before it has left idle for 48 hours. If a thread has had no replies for 2 days or so, its ok to bump it.
[b][color="Red"]3:[/color][/b] Revive a thread after a few weeks. If a thread is a few weeks old, do no reply to it.
[b][color="Red"]4:[/color][/b] Insult people that try to help you. This should be higher up on the list, but its likely to get you banned. So don't do it.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]Example Threads[/color][/b][/size]
Here are some examples of bad threads, and some examples of good threads:
[table=Bad Example][u][b]Thread Title:[/b][/u][c]
hi guyz hepl me plz!!!!![r]
[u][b]Thread Body:[/b][/u][c]
hi guyz cn u make me a ultimate speel time annhilation from nmk i dont kno jass guyz so dont giveme any jass ok plz plz guyz i really need it 4 this naruto warz map me and my friends r making

just make it 4 me cuz i really need it
[/table]

If you can not see why that is a bad thread, read the rules again. Little information is given, and it is near illegible. A large number of helpfull people will simply ignore such a post, because its impossible to help someone from such a post!

[table=Good Example][u][b]Thread Title:[/b][/u][c]
Need help creating a spell that freezes all units on the map[r]
[u][b]Thread Body:[/b][/u][c]
Hello, I'm new to these forums, and I have a question regarding how to make a spell that is/does the following:[list]Is channeling[*]Has a cast time[*]Freezes every unit of each enemy player on the map[*]Destroys a random building of each player[*]Creates a weather effect on the map[/list]
If this sounds familiar to some of you, it is based off of the spell "Time Annhilation" in the map [url="http://something.com"]Nautical Marine Knights[/url]. I liked the spell, so I decided to make a version of it for myself.

I know that JASS is an advanced scripting language (or something of that sort) for Warcraft 3, but it's something I don't understand. Thus, I would prefer help via GUI commands.

I've gotten the channeling part down, created the weather effect, I've give it a cast time, and I'm using dummy units to cast storm bolt on units to get them to be stopped, but I still have the following problems:[list]The units are still animated when they're stunned[*]I don't know how to destroy a random building[*]My dummy units stay, and only one of them gets removed at the end of the spell[/list]
Here's what I've got so far:
[trigger=Some trigger]Events
Unit - A unit starts the effect of an ability
Conditions
(Ability being cast) equal to Time Rift
Actions
---- Some actions here, etc. This tutorial is not concerned with what is written, only that something is written. ----[/trigger]
How would I fix my above problems? Examples along with explainations would be appreciated!
[/table]

Whats diffrent about this thread? Allot of information is given. Its written well, and easy to read. It defines the problem, what has been tryed, and is kind to those that read it. While asking for a handout, it is obviosue the poster is interested in learning and trying to improve their own skills. This is the type of post I sometimes give people rep for.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]Reputation[/color][/b][/size]
'Rep' is a good way to see how helpfull a person has been in the past. It's not a judging of skill or knoledge, only how good a community member someone is or tries to be. Don't presume someone has less knoledge because they have less reputation, or a lower post count.

While on this subject, let me mention that posting "thank you" is a rather silly thing to do. The reputation system exists so you can show people thanks by giving them reputation. Its also a nice place to leave a comment with your thanks.

[size="4"][b][color="Yellow"]How This Tutorial Helps Helpfull People[/color][/b][/size]
Tired of answering questions with more questions, just to be able to help someone? Tired of dealing with people unwilling to do things for themselves? Tired of people who are just pricks? Well then, link them here, and tell them to learn how to post before they try doing it again. Its your hobby to help people. Don't let them make it suck.

[size="1"][b]Credits to Pyrogasm for the example threads.[/b][/size]
[size="1"][b]Credits to Griffen for ideas.[/b][/size]
[size="1"][b]Credits to the stupid people who pissed me off enogh to write a tutorial.[/b][/size]

[size="1"][b]Edit History:[/b][/size]
[edit]Edited for content, formating, and a few spelling and grammer errors[/edit]

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Good Resources:
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:30 AM   #7
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This tutorial comes from me being pissed off a lot while browsing the Triggers & Scripts and Deneral Development forums.

Thats not a bad thing, but ignoring their experiance is likely to make them not waste their time on you. Try to take what experianced users say, and use that information to learn how to make your own map.

A large number of helpfull people will simply ignore such a post, because its impossible to help someone from such a post!

If this sounds familiar to some of you, it is based off of the spell "Time Annhilation"

How would I fix my above problems? Examples along with explainations would be appreciated!

'Rep' is a good way to see how helpfull a person has been in the past. It's not a judging of skill or knoledge, only how good a community member someone is or tries to be. Don't presume someone has less knoledge because they have less reputation, or a lower post count.

How This Tutorial Helps Helpfull People

Credits to the stupid people who pissed me off enogh to write a tutorial.

This last one makes me laugh.

Edited for content, formating, and a few spelling and grammer errors

All I did was paste everything into OpenOffice and it found all the spelling errors. I just checked spelling, not grammar.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:48 AM   #8
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Ah, yes, as wyrmlord has said, those are the errors. My fault for spelling Annihilation and explanation (go figure the word "explain" isn't in it) wrong.
Quote:
what has been tryed
I found it entertaining that you spelled "grammar" wrong, too.

I would suggest you use lists for your, well, lists, but the coloring wouldn't hold through. I think they need an indent or something.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Rising_Dusk
Your spells are mostly ignored because they are not very cool so we aren't very excited to review/approve them, but you are incredibly persistent and won't give us an excuse to graveyard it. That is generally what results in a resource being ignored for a long time.

The Spell Request ThreadDone for, unless someone else wants to revive it...
It lasted a damn long time.

Please; Ask for Help Appropriately














Quote:
Originally posted by Kyrbi0
Huh. Almost makes me wish I had a girlfriend, to take advantage of today (wait, no, that's not what I meant... I mean, take advantage of the fact that it is international women's day... gah, never mind).
Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrogasm
Rome may not have been built in a day, but the Romans sure as hell didn't say "look at this great city we built guys!" when they had nothing more than a bit of stone and some cottages.
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:01 AM   #9
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What's Deneral Gevelopment?
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Zoom (requires log in)Wc3 map optimizer 5.0
Someone should fix .wav sound in this thing.
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Turns your simple code into something that is complicated enough to work.
Faster != more useful
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexorian
What's Deneral Gevelopment?
Smart ass =P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrogasm
I found it entertaining that you spelled "grammar" wrong, too.
I fail at engrish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrogasm
I would suggest you use lists for your, well, lists, but the coloring wouldn't hold through. I think they need an indent or something.
Done. It does look much better ^^
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:37 AM   #11
Pyrogasm
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Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)Pyrogasm is a splendid one to behold (638)

Hero Contest - Fourth place

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Ah. How could I forget to spam smilies?!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rising_Dusk
Your spells are mostly ignored because they are not very cool so we aren't very excited to review/approve them, but you are incredibly persistent and won't give us an excuse to graveyard it. That is generally what results in a resource being ignored for a long time.

The Spell Request ThreadDone for, unless someone else wants to revive it...
It lasted a damn long time.

Please; Ask for Help Appropriately














Quote:
Originally posted by Kyrbi0
Huh. Almost makes me wish I had a girlfriend, to take advantage of today (wait, no, that's not what I meant... I mean, take advantage of the fact that it is international women's day... gah, never mind).
Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrogasm
Rome may not have been built in a day, but the Romans sure as hell didn't say "look at this great city we built guys!" when they had nothing more than a bit of stone and some cottages.
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Old 04-08-2007, 04:05 AM   #12
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moyack is a splendid one to behold (661)moyack is a splendid one to behold (661)moyack is a splendid one to behold (661)moyack is a splendid one to behold (661)

AI Tournament #2 - 2nd PlaceHero Contest - Second place

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I suggest to change that yellow in the bold text by a more neutral color, like orange for instance.

Please keep the good work.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:23 AM   #13
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blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)blu_da_noob is just really nice (398)

[Quicksilver #2] - 2nd Place[Quicksilver#1] 1st place

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This is going in my sig for a start, and if I had my way this would be sticked in all development forums.

Edit: oh yeah, you should add that you need to make sure you are posting your problems in the right place.
Also, for people helping, just giving them a trigger as the solution is always inferior to helping them construct the trigger themselves.
Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life.
Yes?
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Last edited by blu_da_noob : 04-09-2007 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 12:34 PM   #14
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Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)

Hero Contest #3 - 1st PlaceApproved Map: Desert of ExileApproved Map: Advent of the ZenithHero Contest #2 - 1st PlaceHero Contest - Third place>

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Give a man a fish and he will shut up and go away, teach a man to fish and he'll never leave you alone until you just give him the damned fish.
And I approve of this thread.

EDIT:
Quote:
It defines the problem, what has been tryed, and is kind to those that read it. While asking for a handout, it is obviosue the poster is interested in learning and trying to improve their own skills.
Tried* Obvious*
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Last edited by Rising_Dusk : 04-09-2007 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:37 PM   #15
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Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)Vexorian has a reputation beyond repute (1060)

Hero Contest #3 - 2nd Place

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I suggest not using colors, they are evil since the site has got different themes...
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Zoom (requires log in)Wc3 map optimizer 5.0
Someone should fix .wav sound in this thing.
Zoom (requires log in)JassHelper 0.A.2.A
Turns your simple code into something that is complicated enough to work.
Faster != more useful
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