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Old 01-07-2006, 12:46 AM   #1
Fulla
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Default Magic The Gathering - 2x Black Heroes

Currently im working on the black Heroes for my map, theres more details on the map in the team gathering forum section.

Anyways im looking for ideas/suggestions on the following heroes and the abilities I've gave them.

Each hero has 2 - basic abilities, 3 > standard hero abilities, 1 + passive ability (icon will be hidden to save space) and 1 )) ultimate ability (level 6 req).

Basic abilities increase in level as hero levels up so are always same level as the Hero. All other abilities will have 4 levels.

I will UPDATE this thread regularly

Sorceress Queen [size=2]
- Dark Blast - Pushes all unit in line backwards, dealing (level x 10) damage in addition
- Diabolic Intent - Sacrifice a friendly unit, by turning it into a *pet* demon protector (can only have 1 at once)
> Hex - Area effect around caster, randomly hexes a unit every second for a random duration under template
> Defiling Tears - Template - Curse - Curses all units under template, if they die there is a (level x 10)% chance a demon will riseup from corpse.
> Withering Boon - Sacrifice (level x 10%) of current hp and deal it in damage to target non-undead unit or heals target undead unit.
+ Diabolic Servitude - Improves Demons, increases number of demons, Hero may control at any one time
)) Sickening Dreams - Channel - summons sinister spirits from the Soceress Mind attacking (suicide attacking) all nearby enemy units.

Grandmother Sengir
- Dregs of Sorrow - Chain Lightning Drain Life/Mana
- Tainted Pact - Activate/Deactivate - Reduces all damage taken by (level x 4%) but gives a negative hp/mana degeneration
> Blinding Agony - Curse - Target units takes 25/50/75/100% extra damage for X seconds.
> Sicken - Curse - Target unit looses life per second and has its damage/armor reduced
> Plunge into Darkness - Curse - Slows target enemy unit and gives him a % chance to miss attacks and fail spells.
+ Screams from within - Aura - When effected unit dies all Grandmothers buffs unit had are transfered.
)) Final Punishment - Does (Level of spell x 25%) of targets Maximum hp - Current Hp in damage

Last edited by Fulla : 01-08-2006 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Updated
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:49 AM   #2
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NONE of those spells are true to MTG. Drop the name, or try to at least be faithful.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:03 AM   #3
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Its an AoS Map, I've adapated the spells.

I cant have search your library, discard 2 cards, take an extra turn after this one etc. etc.

If your into the storyline of MTG, then you could say the card game adapted alot of things to fit the gameplay of the card game IMO.
By this I mean they take a character or an event that occured and just make it into a card.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:45 AM   #4
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Make the Abilties sound more like the real ones instead of making them up.
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Hidden information:
Heroes: 15%
Terrain: Map 1: 25% 2: 3: 4:
Doodad Management: Map 1: 6% 2: 3: 4:
Monsters: 0%
Bosses: 0%
Boss Fight System: 0%
Base Items: 0%
Total Items: 0%
Back Pack 50%
Saveable Pet System: 0%
Casting System: 95%
NPC Conversations: 0%
Custom Spells: 1%
Custom Spells(paper): 10%
Concept Stage: 40%
Ideas: 35%

Map 1: 10%
Map 2: 0%
Map 3: 0%
Map 4: 0%

Overall: 2.6%
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Make the Abilties sound more like the real ones instead of making them up.

Easier said than done
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Old 01-07-2006, 10:35 AM   #6
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I have to agree with the others. Just naming the map MTG isn't enough, without actually mimicking the card game a bit, you will only get negative feedback. You don't have to make it exactly like the card game, but you could at least keep some elements in one form or another. Just a few suggestions:

-Lands as mana sources. It doesn't have to be exactly like mtg, with different kinds of mana and everything, but at least the heroes should have a special ability to recharge their mana from special magic spots on the land, and depending on the hero's compatibility with the land (same/neighbouring/opposing colours), their mana recharges accordingly. Just a thought.

-Spells as scrolls: items are perfect for reproducing the card mechanic from the game. Sure, heroes might have their own skills too, but that should be more based on what their "legend" card does rather than copies of other cards.

-More creature spells: a lot of MTG mechanics revolves around creatures. It's not just creatures themselves, it's also a lot of other cards that buff/debuff/destroy creatures.

-Combinations: MTG is all about building a good deck, picking cards that work well together. That's how various spells should be designed, with combinations in mind.
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
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I have to agree with the others. Just naming the map MTG isn't enough, without actually mimicking the card game a bit, you will only get negative feedback. You don't have to make it exactly like the card game, but you could at least keep some elements in one form or another. Just a few suggestions:

-Lands as mana sources. It doesn't have to be exactly like mtg, with different kinds of mana and everything, but at least the heroes should have a special ability to recharge their mana from special magic spots on the land, and depending on the hero's compatibility with the land (same/neighbouring/opposing colours), their mana recharges accordingly. Just a thought.

-Spells as scrolls: items are perfect for reproducing the card mechanic from the game. Sure, heroes might have their own skills too, but that should be more based on what their "legend" card does rather than copies of other cards.

-More creature spells: a lot of MTG mechanics revolves around creatures. It's not just creatures themselves, it's also a lot of other cards that buff/debuff/destroy creatures.

-Combinations: MTG is all about building a good deck, picking cards that work well together. That's how various spells should be designed, with combinations in mind.

Some of the things maybe I will do but the map is a warcraft AoS map,

Lands, Each base could regenerate there mana or simply have a fountain,.

Legends, Generally each creature has 1 ability, so the game will be pretty boring if they just have 1 ability even if it is exactly what it is on the card.

Creatures, I havent done the units for each team yet but thats what I intended to do. the first creatures will be low 1/1 creatures and you can research and upgrade your teams units so they send out bigger and stronger units as well as the weaker ones becoming stronger.

Combinations, I can do that with making heroes with spells that work well together.

Look, I see your point of view. But realistaclly a AoS map based completely on the card game card for card simply wouldnt work or it is very unlikely. How I do it>>

Sorceress Queen, all she can do is make a creature 0/2. Now to me that spell is VERY similiar to Hex. So I gave her a Hex spell.
On the picture of the card she is surrounded by small creatures which look like her servants/minions, so I gave her a few summoing spells.
I'll base the summoned units on MtG such as NEttling Imp, a creature with Taunt which can be very useful for a spellcaster to draw attacks away.

How about one of you guys gives me an example then, pick any legend give him 6-7 abilities. No matter what you do I bet ill be able to say *well thats not like the card game*.

But most importantly, how many ppl on war3 do you think actually have any knowledge of MtG? How many would rather just play a fantastic AoS
map (If I do say so myself).
Have any of you seen that MtG Wars map? I c it played so much but it has barely anything to do with MtG. All you can do it pick colours.

I dont know if any of you guys ever played Starcraft, but there used to be a few MtG maps that were brilliant. They were close to the game kind of footman wars like, where you send in swarms and casts spells build enchantments/artifacts and such. It was my favourite starcraft map of all time.

Lastly, for all intents and purposes, I'm making an AoS map first, with plenty of heroes fully custom spells, units can have spells upgraded be upgraded and have additional units bought. It will be based on MtG but if I have to choose between gameplay and simply staying true to the cardgame I'll always go with gameplay.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:05 PM   #8
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In MTG, you are the mage. The spells are yours. You realy can't have multiple heroes manipulating powerful spells, while running round getting killed. That just doesn't reflect MTG.

You should use your 'mana' to build forces that become the waves, defences, enchantments and spells. The mage does not have a real physical presence.

Imagine that. An AOS that doesn't revolve around 1 hero.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:51 PM   #9
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Unless you are playing 1vs1 :P

But I have to agree it doesn't reflect the essence of MTG (or ang other TCG for that matter), either change the name (You could call it Magical... smth) or make the map as a card game.
That way you won't use a name just to attract n00bs.
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:59 PM   #10
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In MtG you are pretty much a planeswalker or atleast very close to that level of power. To make a map on that kind of level you wouldnt be a single Hero you would control an entire team, of multiple heroes units and have much bigger spells than your basic hero abilities.

Im making the map were you are one of the basic *strong* creatures or legends. The goal is to take the role of "general" and lead the small bands of units to destroy the other teams.

So in essence it IS still magic but your alot less powerful. MTG toned down on scale a bit.
To makes it like magic, where you are that powerful the map would be much more of a Footman Wars variant.

I would really like to do that and I mean really love to make a map like that, but look at it from a mapmakers perspective. An AoS map I just need to focus on custom hero spells and custom Items. Alot less work and a much better project to BEGIN with wouldn't you agree?
When I finish the AoS map then I would definetly like to give it a try.

I hope you guys can understand what I mean now, if not well I jsut give up trying to explain it :-)
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Old 01-07-2006, 10:04 PM   #11
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Well, to me it seems like you're being lazy. :P You're making a by-the-book AoS, unwilling to exceed and expand the boundries of the genre at all. Just making another DotA clone, and to make it something special, you're putting a MTG stamp on it.

A harsh view of things, I know, but that's how I see it. You seem unwilling to make the creative effort to either a) adapt the gameplay mechanics to suit the MTG theme, or b) invent your own theme.

I just remembered a map with a neat MTG-ish feel, and it didn't even have anything to do with Magic in terms of hero designs. I think it was called Wardraft. Basically, it was a micro arena where players would compose small armies and fight with them, but the way they made them was very similar to a MTG booster draft. The map only used standard melee game units, but in my eyes, it had more MTG-ness than a classic AoS with renamed heroes and their skills could.

Here's another idea: how about if the heroes would be simpler, with fewer abilities, but along with them, you would get a few special points for which you could get additional mercenary units (creatures), hero items (Artifacts), spells (Sorcery&Instant) and auras (Enchantments)? That would be a neat MTG-esque twist to an AoS. It would be as you said, players wouldn't take the role of planeswalkers, but rather their liuteneants, commanding a small part of their forces.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
Well, to me it seems like you're being lazy. :P You're making a by-the-book AoS, unwilling to exceed and expand the boundries of the genre at all. Just making another DotA clone, and to make it something special, you're putting a MTG stamp on it.

A harsh view of things, I know, but that's how I see it. You seem unwilling to make the creative effort to either a) adapt the gameplay mechanics to suit the MTG theme, or b) invent your own theme.

Its just me and a little bit of help from my brother. The map you are suggestions would no dought take months. I have a jobs/uni etc. etc.

Im starting of with a small project, something I KNOW I can finish. Call me lazy then...

I still dont understand why if a map is not completely based on the card game why it cannot be considered based on the MTG Universe.

I've seen alot of MtG maps were they attempted to make it TO MUCH like the card game. The maps were just complete crap. You may have got the odd MTG fan who said yea its good, jsut because it follows MTG to the letter.

Its not just AoS with MtG stamp, every hero is from the MTG universe, every spell is as well. Black has about 50 target player discards a card. So I adapt them to fit warcraft and change them slightly so not every one does the same thing.

White will still have Soliders/Angels/Knights/Clerics/Birds/Avens/Cats/Foxes/Samurais/Nomads etc.

Spell based on healing, damage prevention, removal, protection, ressurection etc.

Blue will have Wizards/Phantoms/Beasts/Illusions/Merfolk/Cephalid/Drakes/Elementals/Shapeshifters etc.

Spells based on deception, manipulation, control/domination, dispersal and alot of mana related spells.

Red will have Barbarians/Goblins/Orcs/Mages/Dragons/Dwarfs/Giants/Kavus/Minotaurs/

Spells based on destruction, aggression, violence etc.

Green will have Elfs/Druids/Beasts/Treefolkf/Centaurs/Elementals/Insects/Snakes/Spiders

Spells mainly based on Summoing, growth, buffs etc.

Black will have Zombies/Shades/Specters/Vampires/Clerics/Demons/Horros/Nightmares/Imps/
Minions/Rats/Skeletons/Thrulls

Spells based around raising dead, draining life, cursing etc.

If you say thats NOTHING to do with MtG well thats up to you...

Anyways I'll stop arguing, when I finish the map we'll see how it goes. No matter what I do some ppl will always give bad feedback relating to not following MTG enough.

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Old 01-08-2006, 01:28 AM   #13
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I will give an ideia:
Why dont you make Powerfull Heroes that can summon Units with a Mana Cost.
They can buy terrain with Gold, that if they use, it will give they more mana.
Killing enemys will give you gold to buy more Terrains(Mana).
So, as an Example:The White Hero, start with 500 Mana, and a Soldier costs 100 to be summoned.He summons 5 Soldiers and send them to battle.Each unit he kills give him like 50 Gold, the terrain costs 100 or 150.
Each Terrain(Mana) give him more 150 Mana.
Also he can buy Special Terrains that can give 200 Mana or 250.

This is just an ideia
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Old 01-08-2006, 10:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulla
Its just me and a little bit of help from my brother. The map you are suggestions would no dought take months. I have a jobs/uni etc. etc.
Well, that's how things usually are, making a decent map takes months, it would take me that long too. I have released two maps alltogether and I've been mapping for years.

Quote:
Im starting of with a small project, something I KNOW I can finish. Call me lazy then...
I can respect that. My first project wasn't anything big either. But why must it be based on MTG (or anything else). If you like MTG, wouldn't you want to wait until your second project with it, so you could make a really special map with it, not just a standard AoS?

Quote:
I still dont understand why if a map is not completely based on the card game why it cannot be considered based on the MTG Universe.

I've seen alot of MtG maps were they attempted to make it TO MUCH like the card game. The maps were just complete crap. You may have got the odd MTG fan who said yea its good, jsut because it follows MTG to the letter.
Of course, the map you make should be playable. I'm just saying that the classic AoS is not the only type of map that is playable. Finding a game style that is playable and at the same time reminds of MTG (doesn't have to be exactly the same) is the real creative challenge of making a map based on MTG. If you're not interested in exploring this challenge, then why base your map on MTG?

Quote:
Its not just AoS with MtG stamp, every hero is from the MTG universe, every spell is as well. Black has about 50 target player discards a card. So I adapt them to fit warcraft and change them slightly so not every one does the same thing.
Here's where I disagree. You shouldn't adapt the spells to fit warcraft, the point of mapping is to adapt warcraft to fit the theme you're making. If you're adapting only the theme, then yes, you are just putting a MTG stamp on an AoS.

Quote:
...

If you say thats NOTHING to do with MtG well thats up to you...
Well, Wizards didn't invent fantasy cliches. White has always been about healing and black about necromancy. You can hardly say that is the essence of MTG. Any generic fantasy world can have this sort of magic colour distribution.

Quote:
Anyways I'll stop arguing, when I finish the map we'll see how it goes. No matter what I do some ppl will always give bad feedback relating to not following MTG enough.
People will give bad feedback anyway, so you're not even going to try to do better?

I can understand you already have a bunch of the map done and don't want to change the whole concept. But even if I accept that and focus only on the heroes, I can only give the same response as Whitehorn:
Quote:
NONE of those spells are true to MTG. Drop the name, or try to at least be faithful.
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:40 PM   #15
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Well, i have to agree with them, drop the names, and just come up with new ones, that cant be hard. And once you get finished with that map, then u can "dare to dream of better things"
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