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Old 05-24-2008, 11:26 AM   #1
AnemicRoyalty
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Skinning Contest #14 WinnerSkinning Contest #15 WinnerHero Contest #2 - 1st Place

Default WotLK-style Warden Death Knight

so, i was feeling a bit tired and hung over today, so rather than working on uni or DoE icons like i should be, i made this little number.

also tried out erwt's technique of skinning in 1024*1024 res then shrinking and sharpening, i kinda like the result... might stick to 256 res though, 1024 is a bit overwhelming :P

skin is based on the Death Knight on the blizz page, which is apparently the DK starting gear.

if enough people want it, i'll release it

also, i'm having trouble with the wing alpha ingame - i set the transparency to 1% with triggers, lasts for approx 2 seconds ingame then goes back to normal :/ if anyone could point out what i'm doing wrong here it would be greatly appreciated.

comments and crits anyone?
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:55 AM   #2
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One of the best death-knight styled warden skins I've seen, to be honest. Good work on it. I suggest you use that technique more, as it pays off (by the looks of things).

Only crit I have is that the eyes might have looked better if they weren't entirel black. But that's a minor detail.

Anyway I, for one would love to see this released.
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:06 PM   #3
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Very nice, I especially like the cloak
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Old 05-24-2008, 02:45 PM   #4
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Ooooh.
The only thing that bugs me as well is the total-black eyes.
Nice work again AR.
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:34 PM   #5
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Dude, no offense, but that looks terrible. Those super rounded blades make it look like she has clouds on her weapon and back. Blades shouldn't look like clouds, they should look sharp and deadly, currently she looks tame and laughable. In addition, the entire texture is ridiculously dark and would blur horrendously in-game, (Seriously, try it) and there's nothing really exciting or thematic about the texture anyways, it's just a really dark warden with no face and a clearly undefined color scheme. (Might as well be Captain America in Warden form)

The only reason Erwt works in 1024 is because his brush strokes are ridiculously large and he prefers a huge canvas to work on. That works for him really well because he works professionally in such an environment. As far as I can tell, this looks no better or actually worse (Probably not a result of the method used, but rather the theme and design) than your other work and likely took you longer because unlike Erwt I know you didn't use size-50 brush strokes.

The frills on the cape look ridiculous too, what are they supposed to be, tentacles? Doesn't look like a frill at all, really, check out some references. I also hate the eyes, give her some glowing, baleful orbs of doom, don't just black it out; that looks wretched.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:00 PM   #6
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Dusk makes some points but he's a bit off on some of his comments.

This skin isn't "Terrible" at all considering it's a wip. If you consider the image he based this on, this skin came out fairly well. A few changes to the cape outline, and a few changes to the weapon's blades could make this skin 10x better then what it is right now. The idea is right, and works well on the model, and I like what you did with the blades on her back. They could use some work to though, as they do need to look a bit sharper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk
there's nothing really exciting or thematic about the texture anyways, it's just a really dark warden with no face and a clearly undefined color scheme. (Might as well be Captain America in Warden form)
Dusk, Your Captain America reference makes zero sense. Captain America has all the things you claim this skin is lacking. Not only that, but it Anemic posted this without giving it any title at all I would of noticed the Death Knight theme right away (atleast in WoW form).

Also Dusk, your reference to Erwt's style means what exactly? Anemic stated what he knew of erwt's style, and tried to emulate it on one of his own skins. To say Erwt does this because he works in a "professional environment" has nothing to do with skinning in WC3. Skinning in a higher resolution and shrinking will give you a different look then skinning in a smaller size like 256 REGARDLESS of any style you use. Instead of giving a constructive criticism, you seem to have graduated to down right flaming anemic for trying something different then his normal pattern. Get off erwts nuts, and stop making him out to be the only one who can do what he has done. Because erwt is a talented artist, doesn't mean it gives you the right to bring other peoples art down when you compare the two.

I find it down right rude that you, of all people, posted something like this. It seems as though you posted this without even taking a glance at his reference page, which he did an excellent job emulating considering the model he used in comparison. This talk about this "lacking" theme is an atrocious argument because of this. It also seems you totally disregarded Anemic's style because it's not done "perfectly" in comparison to others who have used this method of skinning in a higher resolution.

Here's the link to the reference in case you missed it.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath...t/gameplay.xml

Don't take this as a disrespectful comment as I do respect you as a mod and as a map maker to some extent, but I did not expect to see such a ridiculous post come from someone who usually pays good attention to purpose behind peoples art.

EDIT: Also he did try it in game by his comments in the first post, so I'm sure he knows the contrast it has in game.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:17 PM   #7
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I agree with dusk on the points of the curved blades and the eyes, but other then that I think it looks quite good.

If you fix those two things, it'd be awesome if you released this.
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Old 05-24-2008, 08:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
Dusk, Your Captain America reference makes zero sense.
Did you miss the color similarities? It even followed a remark on the color scheme of the texture, I found it to be relatively obvious what I was referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
If you consider the image he based this on, this skin came out fairly well.
Artists should not limit themselves by the reference picture. Ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
Also Dusk, your reference to Erwt's style means what exactly? Anemic stated what he knew of erwt's style, and tried to emulate it on one of his own skins.
Sorry, I know more about the topic than you do, AR and I have chatted profusely about this sort of thing over MSN. He will understand my comments a lot better than you apparently did. Hopefully the confusion didn't make you turn a blind eye to the points I was making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
I find it down right rude that you, of all people, posted something like this.
Actually, this is how I comment on all of his textures. Search his other ones.

And for your information, what works in WoW does not necessarily work in WC3. I am entirely sure that if he (Or anyone) tested it in-game, he (Or anyone) would agree with me entirely. It's just too dark and the color scheme is totally botched for WC3, hell I even think the reference picture is terribly ugly; I would not want to run around in that armor in WoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
I find it down right rude that you, of all people, posted something like this.
I find it downright rude of you to assume that you know more about where I'm coming from (And how AR and I interact normally) than you obviously do. This is how I comment on stuff and shit, even after your essay-long rebuttal I still stand by everything I said. It just doesn't look good to me, whether you like my opinion or not isn't my problem, and whether AR takes any of my advice or not is his choice. Neither of those facts change how I present myself or how I feel.

In its current form, I would never use it in my maps. Sorry if that upsets you.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:26 PM   #9
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Did you miss the color similarities? It even followed a remark on the color scheme of the texture, I found it to be relatively obvious what I was referring to.
Quote:
t's just a really dark warden with no face and a clearly undefined color scheme.
The color scheme is quite apparent. I'll expect this to be obvious enough.

Quote:
Artists should not limit themselves by the reference picture. Ever.
Who's setting limitations? I said he did a good job with what he wanted to do.

Quote:
Sorry, I know more about the topic than you do, AR and I have chatted profusely about this sort of thing over MSN. He will understand my comments a lot better than you apparently did. Hopefully the confusion didn't make you turn a blind eye to the points I was making.
No, they did not make me turn a blind eye, and for the most part, I agreed with the things you said. Regardless of what you know or don't know, you judging his art based on others art was my main gripe with what you said.

Quote:
Actually, this is how I comment on all of his textures. Search his other ones.

And for your information, what works in WoW does not necessarily work in WC3. I am entirely sure that if he (Or anyone) tested it in-game, he (Or anyone) would agree with me entirely. It's just too dark and the color scheme is totally botched for WC3, hell I even think the reference picture is terribly ugly; I would not want to run around in that armor in WoW.
I understand why you are blunt when criticizing someone's art, in fact I think it's the only way to do it, but to come out and say this looks like crap because erwt does it better then you isn't what you need to say. I'm sure you may of meant differently, but that is how it looks in your post. And for your information, I was not saying what worked in WoW will work here, so please do not get that impression. I mentioned WoW because the death knight image is different in the wc3 universe then it is in the WoW universe, thus I showed the reference picture. I applauded his work in the fact that he took his idea, and executed it to what he wanted it to be, at least up to this point. I'm not saying some scrub that walks in here and says "ZOMG LOOK MY DEATH KNIGHT SKIN" and it has the same colors is going to get my appreciation, I'm saying he took his idea, and made quite a clear and concise piece of art out of it. You seem to have ignored that and cannot get over your opinion about how erwt would of done it better. Which obviously is not how you should be criticizing someone else's work.

Quote:
I find it downright rude of you to assume that you know more about where I'm coming from (And how AR and I interact normally) than you obviously do.
Never once did I claim to know more or less about the topic then you did. Who cares? When you post something like your previous post, it comes off rude because we don't know how you talk to anemic, nor does it matter. I've seen you and other mods complain about how people come into this forum who are new and start flaming others, but when they read this, what kind of example are you setting? Either way that's another topic entirely.

Quote:
This is how I comment on stuff and shit, even after your essay-long rebuttal I still stand by everything I said.
I understand fully well how you are blunt and honest in your post, It's the best way to get the point across, but I addressed my reasoning for being upset with your post enough times already. After my essay long rebuttal you still have no clue what my point was cause your still stuck on your opinion instead of comprehending my problems with what you said.

Quote:
In its current form, I would never use it in my maps. Sorry if that upsets you.
Your opinion to use this in your map or not has no relevance whatsoever. No, It doesn't upset me.

Hope you can muster through another essay-rebuttal without completely ignoring what I said to begin with. Show me evidence where the theme is lacking and I'll say your partially thought out response holds some water.
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by wij
you judging his art based on others art was my main gripe with what you said.
I did no such thing; quote me on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
I understand why you are blunt when criticizing someone's art, in fact I think it's the only way to do it, but to come out and say this looks like crap because erwt does it better then you isn't what you need to say.
And that isn't what I said at all...
I was commenting on that his attempt to use Erwt's style did not improve or otherwise change the quality of his work in the least, but likely made the piece take much longer than normal for him to create. That's it, that isn't comparing two artists or anything. Heck, read my first post again and see for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
When you post something like your previous post, it comes off rude because we don't know how you talk to anemic, nor does it matter. I've seen you and other mods complain about how people come into this forum who are new and start flaming others, but when they read this, what kind of example are you setting?
If I think something looks terrible, I'm going to tell you it looks terrible and that's that. I'm not going to sugar coat it so that you feel good about yourself because it doesn't look half as good as I know he's capable of. Hell, I'm damned sure he knows it too, that is nearly entirely the reason this was posted as a WIP in the first place. I hope to God that everyone follows my example here, because if I make a piece of shit map or system I want people to tell me that. If it's useless, I want to know, and I want to know why. It is because of such blunt comments that my ass gets kicked to making it better in the first place. If someone was half-assed about it, I'd probably ignore them altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
Your opinion to use this in your map or not has no relevance whatsoever.
Yes, it legitimately does in this case, but that you don't see it isn't of concern to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wij
Show me evidence where the theme is lacking and I'll say your partially thought out response holds some water.
If I tell you it doesn't look like a death knight, you'll say it looks like the reference. If I tell you the reference looks terrible too, you'll ignore it like you did in your last post. If I suggest again that an artist should never limit himself by the reference picture, you'll also ignore that. If I quote myself commenting on what I think needs improvement and where (Which is quite obviously prevalent in my first post), you'll ignore that and instead focus on the connotation of the words I picked totally out of context of what I said.

Now, unless you have something to say that doesn't twist and contort what I said into things that I didn't say, please let this end. You'll see how it all works out when AR posts again.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:35 AM   #11
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woah, pull your horns in, gentlemen.

Dusk:

i ran out of inspiration for the wings and weapon, eventually settled on a rounded axehead, will change it later. the weapon does look tacky, i want to fix that soonish.

i know what you mean about the eyes, i actually tried that, but decided to stick with the concept for the time being. it's an easy fix, no worries.

skinning at 1024 was an interesting experience, didn't take too much longer than a normal skin. i avoided using brush sizes under 5 as well, knowing that they wouldn't come out right. honestly i don't mind the result, has a bit of a WC3-effect to it.

the trim on the cape is meant to be fur, i don't know if that comes accross, but thats what its meant to be :P

I've attached an ingame pic, it keeps the detail surprisingly well IMO, but the final call is up to you.



wij: it's cool, man. Dusk and I are like this all the time, it's how we get stuff done.

also, Dusk is NOT comparing me and erwt, he's just noting the differences in the way we do things. At no stage did he say that erwt is the be all and end all of skinning. However, I respect erwt as being a MUCH better texturer than me, i want that known. thats why i tried to do this texture his way in the first place.

Don't mistake Dusk's bluntness for rudeness, he simply speaks his mind and doesn't beat around the bush.

.................................................................................................... ....

this really was a 'just for fun' skin, my entire thought process was:

"i feel like making something new today, but i feel like poop so nothing too out there. Hey! that Death Knight's helmet looks kinda like the warden's, wonder if i can make that? The texture is higher quality than standard WoW textures, so i'l try making it at 1024 res and shrinking it, just for something different."

thats my entire reasoning behind it :P

yes, i just tried to make it look like the reference, which i also thought looked weird when i first saw it.

anyway, i'll update sometime in the near future.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:55 AM   #12
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i ran out of inspiration for the wings and weapon, eventually settled on a rounded axehead, will change it later. the weapon does look tacky, i want to fix that soonish.
Ah, so that's why you made them rounded. I think sharp edges would distinguish them better than the rounded ones, makes them look more deadly and virulent, like a death knight should. (As opposed to blunt and grawr, like an orc might)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty
skinning at 1024 was an interesting experience, didn't take too much longer than a normal skin. i avoided using brush sizes under 5 as well, knowing that they wouldn't come out right. honestly i don't mind the result, has a bit of a WC3-effect to it.
Well good at not using super small brushes, but I think it's tough to gauge the WC3ish feel, especially on a skin that's so dark that the flesh color of the chin is practically indistinguishable in the portrait model in-game. Speaking of which, I was right about it being way too dark, and the glowy red eyes would totally bring some life back to that portrait. (It's way boring right now)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty
the trim on the cape is meant to be fur, i don't know if that comes accross, but thats what its meant to be :P
Hrm... I think it needs to look more like the fur on Ztera's skin. You know what I mean? That fluffy feeling stuff. Right now it kind of looks like tentacles, fur clumps better than you have it drawn right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty
I've attached an ingame pic, it keeps the detail surprisingly well IMO, but the final call is up to you.
I think the problem isn't in keeping the detail when translated to in-game, but rather having any distinguishable detail in the first place. The colors are really dark together, so they blend together and become one in-game. Look at that in-game camera angle, the whole thing looks black or dark gray with a spot of blue on the shoulders. That's a problem!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty
thats my entire reasoning behind it :P
Hey, no sweat, I've made map systems for less noble reasons myself. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty
anyway, i'll update sometime in the near future.
Yay!
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:15 PM   #13
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Woah dudes...

I actually thought it looked pretty good. The biggest problem with it is that all the highlights are really rounded. If you check out wc3 skins, the highlights are relatively small and prominent, the colors are defined and sharp. Theres no real "gradient" shading anywhere, and this skin has it all over.

And about "my style"; all i did was look at blizzards textures real close. I've been trying to emulate it on 500x500 for quite some time but just could never really get it to be awesome enough, so when i did the inquisitor i bumped it up to twice that just so i could get my shapes to be sharper.

Thats why i do it that way, and thats what its all about. The bigger you make your texture, the more room you have to define your shape. You dont wanna be in a situation where you're detailing things when zoomed in at 200%, becouse it makes stuff more pixely and inacurate. You want to do your general texture zoomed at 50% and be able to go to 100% for the details and for defining shapes.

Increasing the size of the canvas does by no means imply that the texture will have more detail. Thats all up to the artist. But what it does mean is that you have the room to really define shapes. If you think for even one second that any of the skins in wc3 have been made at 250*250, no offence, but you're a fucking retard. The sharpness of the datails is way too nice, i find this especially obvious when looking at the hair in the paladin skin. It just looks like its been painted casually with relaxed big strokes, reather then friddled on a small serface.

--

To conclude my little rant here, the fact that this texture turned out the way it did is not becouse of the increased texture size or any of that. It is becouse Anemic made it the way it is! And please leave my "style" out of this. I've stated before and i'll do it again, i dont have a "style" i just try to emulate samwises work as good as i can, thats it.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:28 PM   #14
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updates, bit more deathknight-y
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:06 AM   #15
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Could work as a Vrykul female, which means you get to scale it more than other units. :P
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