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Old 02-11-2009, 01:11 PM   #1
Alexis_Septimus
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Default Brotherhood Of Kenji

Status

Map Status - Open Source
Current Version - 1.05

Description

This cinematic revolves around the battle between 2 brothers, Murasame and Masamune who have became rivals ever since their superstitious father mistreated Masamune after listening to a fortune teller that had told him about Masamune bringing misfortune to the family while Murasame brings luck.

The abused soon became unbearable to Masamune, which eventually results to him murdering his own father and choosing to join the evil path. However, Murasame returns in time to listen to his fathers last wish.

His fathers last wish is to tell Masamune how sorry he was for mistreating him and to bring him back to the righteous path.

4 years have passed and Murasame has became a general for his outstanding achievement in millitary. One day, faith brought both of them to met in a forest during midnight. The beginning of the ultimate battle between both brothers, has begun.

Cinematic Time - 4 minutes 21 seconds

Credit

Terrain Editor

raid1000

Language Editor

bounty hunter2

Jass Editor

HappyTrigger
Hanky

Model

Black_Stan
WILLTHEALMIGHTY
DungeonM

Loading Screen

Paladon

Changelog

Version 1.08 Update

Remove unnecessary code.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.jpg (77.3 KB, 92 views)
File Type: jpg 2.jpg (94.2 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg 3.jpg (110.4 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg 4.jpg (98.8 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg 5.jpg (135.1 KB, 70 views)
Attached Files
File Type: w3x Brotherhood Of Kenji v1.08.w3x (2.57 MB, 36 views)

Last edited by Alexis_Septimus : 05-03-2009 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:09 PM   #2
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Here's my review. In case you want this map accepted there's a lot of work to do.

First of:
There is no story in the cinematic. You explain a bit in the description, but a movie shouldnt be read in advance to understand a story.
Because of this the cinematic focusses on action. This part is poorly done as well. Take a look at action movies. In these movies everything is happening very quickly, without stops. In this cine there's the classic "wait and see" syndrome that I have seen so many times (tho to a lesser degree in this cine). The two fighting units dont seem to have a mind of their own, they wait around, do a spell, wait for the other to finish etc. They do not seem to live.
Furthermore there is a huge amount of sfx abuse. Again, take an example from movies. There's never (not even in SF movies like LotR or SW) an abuse in sfx this big. Your sfx are randomly just created without context and do not serve a purpose besides looking pretty.
Then there's the camerawork. Oh boy. There are SOME good shots, mostly those that dont move. Once the camera starts moving around it is like it is connected to a fly which is just randomly flying in one direction then to other. It is shocking really bad and there's no purpose for the angles chosen.
Last of which springs into my mind: the timing is way off. I guess waits are being used here. I advice to use either timers or look into systems like Anitarfs Cinematic System

I'm giving you some time to respond and show activity before I graveyard this map (it really needs LOADS of work to do!).

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Old 03-21-2009, 05:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
There is no story in the cinematic. You explain a bit in the description, but a movie shouldnt be read in advance to understand a story.

Actually it was a battle cinematic just like Unforgotten Grudge map without any story. Some user request me to create a synopsis of the story because it would look nicer, that is why I wrote it.

Quote:
Because of this the cinematic focusses on action. This part is poorly done as well. Take a look at action movies. In these movies everything is happening very quickly, without stops. In this cine there's the classic "wait and see" syndrome that I have seen so many times (tho to a lesser degree in this cine). The two fighting units dont seem to have a mind of their own, they wait around, do a spell, wait for the other to finish etc. They do not seem to live.

It combine the element of slow motion and fast motion in it, that is why some action was happen very quickly while some was quite slow to give a perspective view on it.

Quote:
Then there's the camerawork. Oh boy. There are SOME good shots, mostly those that dont move. Once the camera starts moving around it is like it is connected to a fly which is just randomly flying in one direction then to other. It is shocking really bad and there's no purpose for the angles chosen.

The speed of the camera depends on the motion and some chosen angle is to avoid confusion. For example, some user ask me why the samurai did not injured although the ninja stab him. The camera angle was to give a clear view of the sword missing it's target.

Should I provide a screenshot of where it was?

Quote:
Last of which springs into my mind: the timing is way off. I guess waits are being used here. I advice to use either timers or look into systems like Anitarfs Cinematic System

There is no wait function being used. It was 100% used in timer, maybe the slow motion in this cinematic makes you think a wait action have been used (Try check the trigger, there is no wait action).

I seen some battle movies, some of it have slow motion at some scenario to give a suspence or WHOA feeling.

Take a look at this battle scene, it combine slow and fast motion in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6KLKNIXj8

I combine the element of slow and fast motion in it. When a slow motion occur, you would notice the speed of the camera and unit was slow down drastically to indicate a slow motion have occur.

I been trying to figure out how to used Anitarfs Cinematic System for quite a time, but I am not JASS user. Thus, given me a hard time trying to figure out how to use it (Especially the subtitle, which I trying to used it all the time).
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:45 AM   #4
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This "battle scene" is really weird, the camera keeps moving... I kept trying to figure out what was going on. Also the terrain... wasn't really playing a part in the story except for the end...

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Old 03-21-2009, 10:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
This "battle scene" is really weird,

Can you elaborate more about the weird area? I don't seems to be quite understand about the weird thing you refer to.

Quote:
the camera keeps moving... I kept trying to figure out what was going on

I make the camera on the moves to make it match with the fast pace music and action. I do not want a boring battle cinematic where the camera just stay frozen for about 5-10 seconds.

The only time the camera stop or slow down for awhile would usually be slow motion moment. I do not let the camera stop longer than 3 seconds unless there is a reason for it.

Quote:
Also the terrain... wasn't really playing a part in the story except for the end...

What do you mean?
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:38 PM   #6
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The whole the ninja does his "ninjutsu" is way to flashy IMO, (the one of the weird part). Though it might be cause I watch/read too much Naruto, but when you think about it ninjutsu is usually 1 element in a focused form...

Now lets see, the random explosions around the "Swordsman" and the Ninja are just way too overused. Especially the one around the Swordsman as the Ninja prepares to strike.


I see what you mean that you want the camera moving, but there was no way to tell if it was a slow motion part NOR normal motion part. You need to distort things a little if you want viewers to tell the difference instead of slowing/stopping the camera.


In reality, terrain (and still does when you think about the present) does play a part in every battle. I reckon you should take into account that in "Unforgetten Grudge" used the terrain as the Blademaster picked up a Glaive from the ground.

Bleh too lazy to type the rest.

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Old 03-21-2009, 07:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
The whole the ninja does his "ninjutsu" is way to flashy IMO, (the one of the weird part). Though it might be cause I watch/read too much Naruto, but when you think about it ninjutsu is usually 1 element in a focused form...

Why do people see a japanese theme map, it always remind them of manga/anime. It doesn't suprise me to hear the news of "Whenever you see a japanese, it would remind you of anime" XD

Quote:
Now lets see, the random explosions around the "Swordsman" and the Ninja are just way too overused. Especially the one around the Swordsman as the Ninja prepares to strike.

It wasn't a random explosions, the effect was in circle to repel off the enemy attack. At the finale scene, the samurai unleash a explosion in within him to destroy every single image of the ninja to reveal the true one.

Maybe it was indeed overused, I would try to tone down the effect or change the formation of the effect to give it a different look.

Quote:
I see what you mean that you want the camera moving, but there was no way to tell if it was a slow motion part NOR normal motion part. You need to distort things a little if you want viewers to tell the difference instead of slowing/stopping the camera.

Ouch, did't that slow motion part was rather quite slow and the fast motion part was rather rapid at this moment? Can you give a suggestion on how to distort it?

Quote:
In reality, terrain (and still does when you think about the present) does play a part in every battle. I reckon you should take into account that in "Unforgetten Grudge" used the terrain as the Blademaster picked up a Glaive from the ground.

My terrain was focus on display and I avoid a massive usage of destructible/doodad to avoid a lag occur due to it.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:15 AM   #8
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Ok, I have remove some camera that are deem to be moving too rapidly and tone down the amount of special effect.

Quote:
The two fighting units dont seem to have a mind of their own, they wait around, do a spell, wait for the other to finish etc. They do not seem to live.

Infrane, I keep watch the cinematic over again. But I cannot find a scene where they both wait each other to cast spell for 2-3 seconds. If you refer to the scene of ninja casting a explosion, that was slow motion scene.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_Septimus
Actually it was a battle cinematic just like Unforgotten Grudge map without any story. Some user request me to create a synopsis of the story because it would look nicer, that is why I wrote it.

It combine the element of slow motion and fast motion in it, that is why some action was happen very quickly while some was quite slow to give a perspective view on it.

The speed of the camera depends on the motion and some chosen angle is to avoid confusion. For example, some user ask me why the samurai did not injured although the ninja stab him. The camera angle was to give a clear view of the sword missing it's target.

Should I provide a screenshot of where it was?

There is no wait function being used. It was 100% used in timer, maybe the slow motion in this cinematic makes you think a wait action have been used (Try check the trigger, there is no wait action).

I seen some battle movies, some of it have slow motion at some scenario to give a suspence or WHOA feeling.

Take a look at this battle scene, it combine slow and fast motion in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6KLKNIXj8

I combine the element of slow and fast motion in it. When a slow motion occur, you would notice the speed of the camera and unit was slow down drastically to indicate a slow motion have occur.

I been trying to figure out how to used Anitarfs Cinematic System for quite a time, but I am not JASS user. Thus, given me a hard time trying to figure out how to use it (Especially the subtitle, which I trying to used it all the time).
The unforgotten grudge leaves story up to the user. There's room for a story there. This seems like a hack&slash cinematic.

You seem to not understand what I mean with what I say. Let me explain clearer: I'm not at all talking about slow motion/normal motion, what I was talking about is that while 1 guy is doing something, the other isnt. In the link you posted to 300 you can see there's always units running around, and the spartan dude never stops running and attacking. This creates a feeling of true action, instead of pre-scripted action. The most important thing is that things should run fluid.
When using slow motion/normal motion you should change camera motion accordingly. I did not at all see this happen in your cine. Looking at 300 again you'll see when the picture is in slow motion the camera moves slowly instead of really fast when its normal. This change is dramatic. Your cine still uses quite fast camera's to indicate slow motion, it does not become clear.
Anyway, enough about slow motion as it is not the main deal here!

The main problem is that the camera does not have a function at all! You dont chose angles with a good thought in mind, you just choose them to fill up empty time. Worse is that the camera goes over the axis (you cant view a person from the left, and change the angle to the right without a shot in between, google it, no movies do this) so many times it is outragious. Furthermore, without a decent camera system (like cinematic system) you really cant move a camera, then move it again from the same point. This will cause a shock which is really ugly. Believe me when I say: the camera's REALLY need work! The camera is always in a birdseye point of view while there are a dozen of other shots you should take!
Think of: overshoulder, medium, close up, total. Things become interesting if these are variated. Also, while birds-eye seems like an easy way out it definately the worst camera you could chose here. It does NOT make things interesting. In movies you will never see a birds-eye view for more than 3 seconds, the shot is mostly from the ground to make the viewer feel he is "in" the movie.

Enough about the camera's!

The timing! For a cine without waits it is really off. Take for example the shot in which other guy keeps hitting the other, while blocking. He swings at him. Nothing happens. A second later you hear the sound of a blade clashing (and a sfx). Think about what you would think in a movie if the sound was off... You'd most certainly not enjoy it.

As for sfx. Use them appropriately. Do ninja's make big explosions? probably not. If they do at least show how they do it... I had no idea where this explosion was coming from. At the end (or at least near the end) there's once again a spam of sfx. 1 explosion is enough to get the message across. You just looked through the "abilities" and "buffs" models to see if anything looked cool and used it...

The wait syndrome I was talking about has nothing to do with slowmotion. While 1 guy is making mirror images of himself, the other is standing there waiting. After this the mirror images stand there waiting while the other guy casts some spell to find the right one. Dont you think the guy would be attacking while the other casts a spell instead of letting him cast his spell? This is not the only case. The entire battle seems unnatural and forced.

As for the terrain, you may have tried to make it about display... but it just seems out of place. Beautiful terrain is possible without doodad spam. For example take a look at unforgotten grudge, the spirit of vengeance, or http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=103669 for example. It is ALL about atmosphere. Noone cares if you made a nice realistic forest if it has no atmosphere!

Anyway: I may seem harsh and it's normal that you react in defense, but I'm trying to help you here. I'm giving my critisism about your map to help you progress. Take my advice and do something with it :)

Are you going to improve your map (in which case i'll leave it here), or do you think its fine as it is (in which case I'll graveyard it, im sorry)?
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:52 AM   #10
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Quote:
The unforgotten grudge leaves story up to the user. There's room for a story there. This seems like a hack&slash cinematic.

Oh, it was like.. let the user make the story?

Quote:
When using slow motion/normal motion you should change camera motion accordingly. I did not at all see this happen in your cine. Looking at 300 again you'll see when the picture is in slow motion the camera moves slowly instead of really fast when its normal. This change is dramatic. Your cine still uses quite fast camera's to indicate slow motion, it does not become clear.

Ok, I would try my best to make the camera even slower. It was quite hard to determine the motion.

Quote:
The main problem is that the camera does not have a function at all! You dont chose angles with a good thought in mind, you just choose them to fill up empty time. Worse is that the camera goes over the axis (you cant view a person from the left, and change the angle to the right without a shot in between, google it, no movies do this) so many times it is outragious. Furthermore, without a decent camera system (like cinematic system) you really cant move a camera, then move it again from the same point. This will cause a shock which is really ugly. Believe me when I say: the camera's REALLY need work! The camera is always in a birdseye point of view while there are a dozen of other shots you should take!
Think of: overshoulder, medium, close up, total. Things become interesting if these are variated. Also, while birds-eye seems like an easy way out it definately the worst camera you could chose here. It does NOT make things interesting. In movies you will never see a birds-eye view for more than 3 seconds, the shot is mostly from the ground to make the viewer feel he is "in" the movie.

Close up look? Ok, I would make the starting camera even close to the battle scene.

Quote:
The timing! For a cine without waits it is really off. Take for example the shot in which other guy keeps hitting the other, while blocking. He swings at him. Nothing happens. A second later you hear the sound of a blade clashing (and a sfx). Think about what you would think in a movie if the sound was off... You'd most certainly not enjoy it.

Eh? The sound was way off? I would fix it asap.

Quote:
As for sfx. Use them appropriately. Do ninja's make big explosions? probably not. If they do at least show how they do it... I had no idea where this explosion was coming from. At the end (or at least near the end) there's once again a spam of sfx. 1 explosion is enough to get the message across. You just looked through the "abilities" and "buffs" models to see if anything looked cool and used it...

Oh... 1 sfx would be enough? I would remake this and make something visible that explain where it cames from.

Quote:
The wait syndrome I was talking about has nothing to do with slowmotion. While 1 guy is making mirror images of himself, the other is standing there waiting. After this the mirror images stand there waiting while the other guy casts some spell to find the right one. Dont you think the guy would be attacking while the other casts a spell instead of letting him cast his spell? This is not the only case. The entire battle seems unnatural and forced.

Ok, I would fix this point immediately. Maybe I set the timing a little off.

Quote:
Anyway: I may seem harsh and it's normal that you react in defense, but I'm trying to help you here. I'm giving my critisism about your map to help you progress. Take my advice and do something with it :)

Hahahaha...Do not worry, no offense taken. Even I was looking harsh whenever I give a constructive critism. A constructive critism always deem to be harsh. Anyway, I do not think it as defending; but more like explaining just like you does. Cause a few user often ask me "Hey, why the camera move soo slow all the sudden", "Why the samurai doesn't hurt upon being stab" and etc etc.

Do not worry about not taking your advice, I do take advice. That is why my mapping skill have been improving a lot in the past 6 months.

I still struggle to use the cinematic system, JASS isn't that kind of thing I was good at.

Quote:
Are you going to improve your map (in which case i'll leave it here), or do you think its fine as it is (in which case I'll graveyard it, im sorry)?

Going to improve it. But just give me time, reconstruct something could took quite a while. Anyway, I was currently joining hiveworkshop speed mapping contest.
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