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Old 02-06-2010, 04:31 AM   #31
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Most disappointing is that this topic didn't even divulge new information.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Belphegor666
That example was about simplifying the model. Ok, so the scene changes now you have four stats - hit points, mana, rage, exp; and three bars -hit point, energy point, shield. Since mana and rage can exist separately (generally speaking) you could map mana->energy, rage->shield, which leaves exp hanging. If you however swallow a pill and simplify gameplay making mana & rage->energy you could then make exp->shield.
In second case you display the necessary information by contracting what is and isn't necessary.
I am not interested in discussing games or how to simplify the games in this thread. Settle in knowing that I agree with you in that I prefer simpler games. The engine, however, should not force a game to be simple by its nature.
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Originally Posted by Belphegor666
I think this where the problem lies. I admit I"m not completely sure what does UI customization means (just visual or spatial customization) the ability to change it and ability to make custom HUD, to me implies that it won't be purely be visual customization and that it will just be harder to modify. I understand your cautious view but if I'm right, and you can redefine UI scripts your entire argument is moot. And the only way to know that is to wait and see.
We will see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
No, it is the sanest. You might want N attributes there (how would you display 10, 20 attributes?). Someone else like Freakazoid might want N resources, I want layered canvas like drawing, someone wants N races, someone else wants a GUI HUD editor, someone else wants a code tool with auto-completion...
Everyone wants something. Really, though, it's not just me that wants control over the base UI. That's something most people here have agreed we wanted a long time ago. I'm just the only one that cares enough to argue with you about it.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:16 PM   #33
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To be fair, SC2 is still a game first and a game engine second.

It is possible that the whole "max 3 displayable hero stats" is only a limitation of the default UI. The UI will after all be modable, but not easily (there will be no UI editor), so it is possible that they only limited themselves to the default UI when discussing mapmaking possibilities.

This.

It was stated by blizzard that the UI would be moddable, but there would not be official support for that (as in, "figure that shit on your own, dont look at us", much in the same vein WE in its entirety was). So as said, the 3 attribute limit would be the only official support we get on modding UI. Doesn't mean UI is not moddable.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:14 AM   #34
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It would seem to me that it wouldn't be too hard to add little scroll buttons next to the attributes that are only visible when more than three attributes are in use. There would only be enough room to show 3 attributes but you could scroll through them if needed. That way if a mapper wants to show the player 15 attributes, he can just enable them.

But I'll hold off on the disappointment or excitement until I install Starcraft 2 on my computer and see the final version.

And as Anitarf said, it's a game first. The Galaxy Editor comes second. In Warcraft 3, the custom maps pretty quickly surpassed the campaign (which might hold your attention for just a couple days) and ladder games. In Starcraft, remember, the campaigns are not only longer, but will be released in "expansion packs" (or whatever you want to call them) so the story will perhaps be a more dominant focus. And with the Battle.net infrastructure upgrades it's clear that Blizzard's goal isn't solely to give mapmakers an unlimited sandbox to play in. For this reason, I don't expect a perfect editor but I'm sure it will be very good and sufficient to keep me map making for a long while
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:22 AM   #35
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OOP is a very lousy term.

For example, from a perspective vJass is not OOP.

From another perspective, Jass natives are OOP...
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:04 AM   #36
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It would seem to me that it wouldn't be too hard to add little scroll buttons next to the attributes that are only visible when more than three attributes are in use. There would only be enough room to show 3 attributes but you could scroll through them if needed. That way if a mapper wants to show the player 15 attributes, he can just enable them.
That is a very shitty solution, though. Not that there are any solutions that aren't. The same UI layout simply can't support both 3 and 30 attributes and look good in both cases, which is why I don't see this limitation as a particularly glaring issue.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:58 AM   #37
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Blergh isn't the UI clearly customizable? I mean, I am sure that one of the modding demos they showed at one of the 600 advertisements showed some sort of arcade demo and the UI was not behaving like sc2's.

Also, I think it was clear that this game was going to suck programming-wise. They repeated the design mistakes they made when doing wc3. The very fact they are once again, doing their own language - reinventing the wheel - means that the language will have bugs and a curve in regards to how to use it on editors. It also means that the feature set will be limited. Blizzard seriously needs to grow up and quit with their insistence to reinvent the wheel.

The second design flaw shared both in wc3 and sc2 is the addition of a GUI on a poor attempt to appeal to the lowest denominator. This means that systematically less work is done on the real language itself. The developers had to focus on retarded things like trying to add functions to the GUI language.

If these flaws would have been overcome... lua/python are easier to use than GUI and are OOP and even more. Or at least not adding a GUI , they would have had time to make the language both accessible for the lowest denominator and powerful. Or they should had at least ONLY work on GUI. Working on so those two different languages in wc3 is what made them do a mediocre job in both - wc3's jass needed so much work from our part and the GUI was too limited and unfriendly to be a realistic alternative.


It is clear that blizzard's plan for sc2 was to keep it living by appealing to professional modders. Else they wouldn't have talked so much about premium maps. However, by making the same mistakes as with wc3, they have made a game engine that won't appeal professional modders as much as the alternatives, and there are far too many. And yes, what I am saying is that once they decided to crave for paid maps, they were supposed to focus on the engine more else the whole plan is not going to work. And only amateurs will be making maps. A limited engine ruins the whole game in this case.
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:33 PM   #38
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Yeah, i would've recommended python/lua aswell as the language in sc2. Maybe Lua would the better choice, since they already got some experience with using Lua in games (e.g. they use it in WoW).
But i suspect that the people who develop Game A (WoW) never speak to other or even developers who develop Game B (Sc2), so they cant share their experiences o_0, additionally the people who developed Game C & D (wc3 & sc) are long gone... so they wont tell anyone about their failures..
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Old 02-16-2010, 04:31 AM   #39
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And when you say Lua/Python you obviously mean Python.

But hell. I'm still confident that the editor will be more capable than the one we have at the moment (Meaning wc3, in case you missed that). Rejoice! Bitching about its lack of OOPness and customizable UI is getting pretty repetitive, and wasn't terribly interesting in the first place.

Paid Maps - I honestly don't care. If people want to sell their maps, all the better for them. If they don't, all the better for me. It's not like I'll actually be playing paid maps.

I just want to sink my teeth into the thing already, and start playing around.

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Old 02-19-2010, 03:29 AM   #40
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Yeah, but usually 3 bars is more than enough (hp, energy, something else). Granted, it would be awesome to be able to extend engine in ever way imaginable but it would be too much to ask (can you imagine when would Sc2 be released?). I would argue that trademark of good design is simplicity and that map-maker ingenuity comes from bypassing those limitations in smart and totally unexpected ways but frankly much of this talk is just empty babble about a game that hasn't been released. Let's wait until the game is out, mkay.

BTW What does the bolded part mean?


? Is there something I missed. What makes you think it won't do that.

So they're having three "customizable" bar attributes (AKA, I can make certain abilities require using health or protoss shields rather than having it require "mana"(or called energy in SC universe)?

Nice.


As for discussion on "paid maps":

Quote:
A major new addition to the map-making community is going to be the StarCraft II Marketplace where high quality maps will be sold for a small fee as "premium maps" over Battle.net. The mode of payment has not yet been announced.

Dustin Browder has mentioned that even maps like player-created DotA (Defense of the Ancients) in Warcraft III would not meet the quality requirements to be branded as a premium map.

Source(which has a link to a video as source

That says a lot, considering DotA makes up most(if not nearly all) of the WC3 player base.

Now of course that would be the quantity of the player base but still, for quality they're still very vague about it then because DotA isn't buggy and the map has a lot of fancy stuff too.

So of course that means not anybody can just sell their maps.

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Old 02-20-2010, 12:21 AM   #41
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My god, it is like I time traveled back to 2009...
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Old 02-20-2010, 02:14 AM   #42
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If only it did.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:53 PM   #43
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In case any1 didn't noe =/ the editor will be released during beta, I'll "upload it" when they release it in an upcoming major patch, if I can.... if you guys want
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Rob Simpson: The new Galaxy Map Editor won't be available initially in beta, but what can people expect when they finally get their hands on it and when would you guys like that to be?

Chris Sigaty: So the editor is something that we're talking a lot about. We would like to potentially release it in what we're calling our major content patch update that's planned for pretty late in the beta to be honest with you. The question really is, will it be far enough along and in a spot where we can allow people to look at it and publish and will we have enough time to react to that? So it's something we're looking at closely. We've discussed it, but I can't say that it will or will not happen at this point, I don't know. It's a goal, but on the periphery of whether it will happen or not, that's probably my best answer to that. What we hope to get from having the editor out there early is get some people started on some cool ideas for maps so that when the game launches they can have some cool stuff up very quickly on the service basically, so that other players can download it and have some other options out there. We feel like we're going to hit a lot of the cases that players would have not only with just their multiplayer maps but we will have some cool mod maps that we're going to do on our own, but they're largely just glimpses at things rather than entire answers. The earlier we can get the community started, the better, it's just the time window is shorter than we have talked about.

You haven't asked this question yet, but I'll answer it ahead of time. We were targeting three to five months for the beta, we're really at a three month period of time for the beta at this point. We are still targeting the first half of this year, so with that in mind, it really shortens the window of time with our major content patch coming out pretty close to the end whether it's even worth it putting out the map editor at that point.

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Old 02-26-2010, 07:13 PM   #44
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I doubt it is kosher to "upload" it. Either Blizzard will make it publicly available (hah, unlikely) or, if someone wants it badly enough, it will be made available as a torrent by third parties. I can guess the EULA on the editor will make explicit that redistribution is a no-no, and that would make your proposed efforts at making it available a form of piracy, which I'm pretty sure is a no-no here.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do, but you certainly shouldn't say that you're going to do it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:31 PM   #45
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I didn't say anything o.0
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