wc3campaigns
WC3C Homepage - www.wc3c.netUser Control Panel (Requires Log-In)Engage in discussions with other users and join contests in the WC3C forums!Read one of our many tutorials, ranging in difficulty from beginner to advanced!Show off your artistic talents in the WC3C Gallery!Download quality models, textures, spells (vJASS/JASS), systems, and scripts!Download maps that have passed through our rigorous approval process!

Go Back   Wc3C.net > Starcraft 2 Modding
User Name
Password
Register Rules Get Hosted! Chat Pastebin FAQ and Rules Members List Calendar



 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-05-2010, 09:46 AM   #16
Rao Dao Zao
www.raodaozao.net
 
Rao Dao Zao's Avatar


MDL & Resource Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,511

Submissions (27)

Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)Rao Dao Zao has a brilliant future (822)

Approved Map: When the Freedom Slips Away

Send a message via MSN to Rao Dao Zao
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachron
However, we know that blizzard again made a bad job. Poor blizzard.
Sorry, couldn't resist:

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
__________________
Rao Dao Zao is offline  
Sponsored Links - Login to hide this ad!
Old 02-05-2010, 12:27 PM   #17
Anachron
User
 
Anachron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,079

Anachron will become famous soon enough (51)Anachron will become famous soon enough (51)

Default

Quote:
? Is there something I missed. What makes you think it won't do that.
Because they told that you can't display more then 3 attributes at once? :S
__________________
CustomInventory [Discussion - Download] - Got Directors Cut!
CustomMissle [Discussion - [Download (not yet)] - In development!
Other systems [Spawn System] [Move System] [CustomBar] [SpellBar]
Anachron is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:13 PM   #18
Belphegor666
User
 
Belphegor666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 787

Submissions (1)

Belphegor666 is on a distinguished road (16)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachron
Because they told that you can't display more then 3 attributes at once? :S
Look you can add more than 3 attributes. That's light years ahead wc3. There isn't an elegant solution to custom number of attributes (sure you can scale them but that just makes them less and less readable; and lists would be very wtf in this). This is pretty much hard to do without pissing someone off or wasting huge amounts of money/time.

Last edited by Belphegor666 : 02-05-2010 at 02:15 PM.
Belphegor666 is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 03:52 PM   #19
Rising_Dusk
Obscurity, the Art


Projects Director
Project Leader: OD
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,729

Submissions (27)

Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)

Hero Contest #3 - 1st PlaceApproved Map: Desert of ExileApproved Map: Advent of the ZenithHero Contest #2 - 1st PlaceHero Contest - Third place>

Send a message via AIM to Rising_Dusk Send a message via MSN to Rising_Dusk
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
BTW What does the bolded part mean?
Uh, exactly what it says; three for the other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
Yeah, but usually 3 bars is more than enough (hp, energy, something else). Granted, it would be awesome to be able to extend engine in ever way imaginable but it would be too much to ask (can you imagine when would Sc2 be released?). I would argue that trademark of good design is simplicity and that map-maker ingenuity comes from bypassing those limitations in smart and totally unexpected ways but frankly much of this talk is just empty babble about a game that hasn't been released. Let's wait until the game is out, mkay.
You could argue some crap about simplicity, and then I would make the counterargument that just having more bars on the bloody interface doesn't detract from simplicity at all. It actually serves to make it simpler, as then you don't need to find alternate means to display values. (ie. Huge multiboard, floating bars over/under heroes, replacing minerals/vespene gas/etc)

It is actually strictly in the vain of simplicity that I'd want the kind of moddability I propose. I'm rather surprised that you're arguing against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
There isn't an elegant solution to custom number of attributes (sure you can scale them but that just makes them less and less readable; and lists would be very wtf in this). This is pretty much hard to do without pissing someone off or wasting huge amounts of money/time.
You don't have some degree in anything related to development to back up such a claim. If you actually think that having a not-fixed number of attributes somehow complicates their design for the game or would draw out the development phase of the game, then think again. It is about as simple as allowing the modder the ability to add another value to a struct and then give them the flexibility to display it as they wish. (Much like the other custom UI stuff they've already shown off)

By the way, what I'm suggesting is the elegant solution. That it isn't available means all the ugly solutions to it have to come to play to get it to work. Welcome to WC3 modding all over again.
__________________

Last edited by Rising_Dusk : 02-05-2010 at 03:57 PM.
Rising_Dusk is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:52 PM   #20
Tot
6
 
Tot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 841

Tot will become famous soon enough (53)Tot will become famous soon enough (53)

Default

so in the end, blizz released an we with some really "usfull" (!!IRONY!!) features...

uh...a third ressource...more but undisplayable attibutes...a third bar...
reminds me on things i saw in ToB
__________________
Current Projects:
  • Masters Of WarCraft: Some mixture of AoS and RPG
    Terrain: 100%, Coding: 75%, Heroes: 0%, Items: 0%, Creeps: 0%, Upgrades: 0%
  • hunting emos
____________________________________
scheiss kack dreck sausacksau bundeswehr
Tot is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:30 PM   #21
Belphegor666
User
 
Belphegor666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 787

Submissions (1)

Belphegor666 is on a distinguished road (16)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
You could argue some crap about simplicity, and then I would make the counterargument that just having more bars on the bloody interface doesn't detract from simplicity at all.
Yes, yes it does. The simple UI (but not simpler than that) is the best UI. In fact the best UI is no-UI (and by that I mean a UI so simplistic and immersive you don't need any training to use it; the best approximation of such UI is direct brain interface that completely simulates how you see world).

Another problem that comes to mind with 3 or more bars is the issue of infinite select and displaying huge amount of data in a small panel (see attachment for a representation of these problems).

Also it seems to me you are arguing a completely different point. I said there isn't an elegant way to represent an arbitrary amount of data inside the "hero card", while you claim that modder should be given a freedom to display data.
According to article modders can already add an arbitrary amount of attributes, they can just show 3. It doesn't state that it will be impossible to layer custom data over the UI. It just says it won't be supported in the editor/ user friendly. From what I've gather you'll have to change some configuration files.

But let me reiterate this again. It is too early to discuss editor. It won't be in a year or two before the game is out. In meantime they could have added OO to Galaxy, for all we know.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ui.jpg (192.8 KB, 92 views)

Last edited by Belphegor666 : 02-05-2010 at 06:52 PM.
Belphegor666 is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:37 PM   #22
Anitarf
Procrastination Incarnate


Development Director
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,189

Submissions (19)

Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)Anitarf has a brilliant future (903)

2008 Spell olympics - Fire - SilverApproved Map: Old School Alliance TacticsHero Contest #2 - 3rd PlaceSpell making session 2 winner

Default

To be fair, SC2 is still a game first and a game engine second.

It is possible that the whole "max 3 displayable hero stats" is only a limitation of the default UI. The UI will after all be modable, but not easily (there will be no UI editor), so it is possible that they only limited themselves to the default UI when discussing mapmaking possibilities.
__________________
Anitarf is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:59 PM   #23
Freakazoid
I love you all.
 
Freakazoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,915

Submissions (14)

Freakazoid is a jewel in the rough (159)Freakazoid is a jewel in the rough (159)

Default

It would be could to be able to add more types of resources.
__________________
Freakazoid is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 07:25 PM   #24
Rising_Dusk
Obscurity, the Art


Projects Director
Project Leader: OD
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,729

Submissions (27)

Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)

Hero Contest #3 - 1st PlaceApproved Map: Desert of ExileApproved Map: Advent of the ZenithHero Contest #2 - 1st PlaceHero Contest - Third place>

Send a message via AIM to Rising_Dusk Send a message via MSN to Rising_Dusk
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
Yes, yes it does. The simple UI (but not simpler than that) is the best UI. In fact the best UI is no-UI (and by that I mean a UI so simplistic and immersive you don't need any training to use it; the best approximation of such UI is direct brain interface that completely simulates how you see world).
Players like to know information. You cannot shirk on giving them the information they need just to reduce the UI. Instead of having to go with complicated solutions to the problem of giving a user all of the information they need for a given game, it is optimal to have the ability to edit the UI and show them exactly what they need to know for a given game and no more. That is the simplest method.

You're advocating getting rid of necessary information as a means to simplify the UI - and while that works, the user still needs that information somehow. My argument, as it appears you've entirely forgotten it or never cared, was that it is better to have the ability to edit the base UI for >3 attributes in the event that you have information you need to give the user, without cluttering the UI elsewhere with clunky things like Multiboards or on-screen bars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
Another problem that comes to mind with 3 or more bars is the issue of infinite select and displaying huge amount of data in a small panel (see attachment for a representation of these problems).
The attachment is only a problem for the on-screen bars. A player's UI is a completely different story, since it does not keep adding bars for each unit the player has, but rather only displays the highlighted unit. (re: WC3 UI)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
Also it seems to me you are arguing a completely different point. I said there isn't an elegant way to represent an arbitrary amount of data inside the "hero card", while you claim that modder should be given a freedom to display data. According to article modders can already add an arbitrary amount of attributes, they can just show 3. It doesn't state that it will be impossible to layer custom data over the UI. It just says it won't be supported in the editor/ user friendly. From what I've gather you'll have to change some configuration files.
The point I have been making is that if you have 10 attributes, the player needs to know what the current value of all 10 of those attributes are. You cannot only display 3 and get away with it, because that is as I said before, not telling the user critical information. The elegant solution would be to have the option to display them all together on the base UI - which is what Blizzard has portended will not be possible. Instead, like WC3, we will have to resort to clunkier options to tell the user everything they need to know.

That's bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
But let me reiterate this again. It is too early to discuss editor. It won't be in a year or two before the game is out. In meantime they could have added OO to Galaxy, for all we know.
You don't have to be able to play with something (ie. editor) to discuss the theory behind why something should or should not be allowed in it.
__________________

Last edited by Rising_Dusk : 02-05-2010 at 07:25 PM.
Rising_Dusk is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 08:29 PM   #25
Belphegor666
User
 
Belphegor666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 787

Submissions (1)

Belphegor666 is on a distinguished road (16)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Players like to know information. You cannot shirk on giving them the information they need just to reduce the UI.

You're advocating getting rid of necessary information as a means to simplify the UI - and while that works, the user still needs that information somehow.
There are ways to visualize information without being blunt (i.e. damage/cover system in CoD 4), there is also the choice of cutting extraneous information by simplifying your model/gameplay.

That's like saying to implement WoW rage in Warcraft 3 you need a new bar. Non-sense, just call your mana energy and make rage regenerate/degenerate in a different manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
The attachment is only a problem for the on-screen bars. A player's UI is a completely different story, since it does not keep adding bars for each unit the player has, but rather only displays the highlighted unit. (re: WC3 UI)
First point is right, but that is assuming you don't have all bars on constantly.
Attachment also shows how quickly the hp/shield is clunked by information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
option to display them all together on the base UI - which is what Blizzard has portended will not be possible. Instead, like WC3, we will have to resort to clunkier options to tell the user everything they need to know..
What is base UI? And where did you read that?

Quote:
* The UI can be customized, but it is not a user-friendly process.[24] The files are externalized, and while they can be edited, there will not be support for that.[22]

* The map editor can create new HUDs, quest interfaces and dialogue. It even supports "mouselook", so moving the mouse influences the player's view.[20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
You cannot only display 3 and get away with it, because that is as I said before, not telling the user critical information. The elegant solution would be to have the option to display them all together on
From what I read and understood. You get 3 default attribute displayed. You want more you redefine the script reimport it (like a skin swap).

Also you want Blizz to enable a default method. That is all nice and peachy except for one damn thing. You can't please everybody. And when you make generic solution you have to please everybody. Which in this case means - incorporate a time consuming, bug prone solution which probably will still cause fans to complain since they would prefer a list, or a tree or a pie chart.
Blizzard only took the sanest route. Give them 3 default parameters, if they want more, let them redefine it.

This being said, I don't exclude the possibility of Blizz completely cutting this or any other functionality from sc2.

@Freakzoid: Yeah I think you get one extra resource.

Last edited by Belphegor666 : 02-05-2010 at 08:35 PM.
Belphegor666 is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:03 PM   #26
Alevice
It feels good
 
Alevice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,305

Alevice is a jewel in the rough (190)Alevice is a jewel in the rough (190)Alevice is a jewel in the rough (190)

Default

I so want a histogram to display the fire rate frquency over a rate of a dozen rounds shot, considering wind force and gunner's reload time. I just hope that attack patterns get displayed ona tag cloud in order of relevance agaisnt the target, considering the stocvk availabilty on the target's owner position.

But let's cross our fingers blizz doesn't end up using a sinewave diagram for the diplomacy options again. We all know how that shit ended up. It's so buggy its not even funny.
__________________
_-|-_

Alevice.jones is SC2 Beta, losers.

Check out my never updated deviantart gallery!!

Kalimdor Raiders (Race Contest #1) Pastebin Page
Cavern Crawlers (Race Contest #2) Pastebin Page
Airship Race Motherfuckers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://ajaxian.com/archives/would-you-like-a-_-with-that-new-library-gives-js-what-it-should-have#comment-276203
- Dont solve problems that dont exist.
- Improve the wheel, dont reinvent it.
- Port the wheel if it doesnt exist in your environment.
- Integrate the wheel into your project.
- Make sure you can replace your wooden wheel for a rubber one if someone else invents it.

Last edited by Alevice : 02-05-2010 at 10:05 PM.
Alevice is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:15 PM   #27
Freakazoid
I love you all.
 
Freakazoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,915

Submissions (14)

Freakazoid is a jewel in the rough (159)Freakazoid is a jewel in the rough (159)

Default

I love you guys.
__________________
Freakazoid is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:38 PM   #28
Rising_Dusk
Obscurity, the Art


Projects Director
Project Leader: OD
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,729

Submissions (27)

Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)Rising_Dusk has a reputation beyond repute (1192)

Hero Contest #3 - 1st PlaceApproved Map: Desert of ExileApproved Map: Advent of the ZenithHero Contest #2 - 1st PlaceHero Contest - Third place>

Send a message via AIM to Rising_Dusk Send a message via MSN to Rising_Dusk
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
There are ways to visualize information without being blunt (i.e. damage/cover system in CoD 4), there is also the choice of cutting extraneous information by simplifying your model/gameplay.
There is always the option of simplifying the game, but we're talking about the UI supporting any game here, not talking about the games themselves. Whether the game is simple or complicated is irrelevant, all that matters is that the UI supports simple displaying of as much information as is necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
That's like saying to implement WoW rage in Warcraft 3 you need a new bar. Non-sense, just call your mana energy and make rage regenerate/degenerate in a different manner.
If the unit could have both mana and rage together, only showing them rage would be a problem. Otherwise, your point is moot, because you have supplied all information and I would agree with it being the appropriate method of displaying the information. If you'd like to cite an example to counter something I say, try citing an appropriate one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
What is base UI? And where did you read that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by First Post
Map makers can define any number of custom attributes for a hero, based on their level.[22] However, the UI can only display three attributes.
I want the option to display N attributes, not 3, so that I can use that space to give information to the player. It doesn't have to be an attribute, it could be anything. Limiting the mapmaker's ability to utilize that space is unfortunate. That is what sparked this discussion in the first place, since you have apparently forgotten.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belphegor666
Also you want Blizz to enable a default method. That is all nice and peachy except for one damn thing. You can't please everybody. And when you make generic solution you have to please everybody. Which in this case means - incorporate a time consuming, bug prone solution which probably will still cause fans to complain since they would prefer a list, or a tree or a pie chart.
Blizzard only took the sanest route. Give them 3 default parameters, if they want more, let them redefine it.
I want Blizzard to make the game properly moddable and give the mapmakers the control they need to do what is necessary to be innovative. Blizzard chose the easy route, not the sanest. It's very simple for them (comparatively) to support N attributes instead of 3 in that space, they simply said "nope, not gonna" for whatever insane reason they might have.
__________________

Last edited by Rising_Dusk : 02-05-2010 at 10:39 PM.
Rising_Dusk is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:53 PM   #29
Archmage Owenalacaster
Laughs Derisively
 
Archmage Owenalacaster's Avatar


Project Member: PoC
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 649

Submissions (1)

Archmage Owenalacaster is a jewel in the rough (180)Archmage Owenalacaster is a jewel in the rough (180)Archmage Owenalacaster is a jewel in the rough (180)

Race-Building Contest #1 Winner

Default

I'm looking forward to the possibilities with SC2's editor and Galaxy. Fuck whining; that shit is ungrateful. I imagine someone in the community will develop an OOP Galaxy, and I will celebrate. Yeah, it sucks Blizzard didn't do it for us, but there is no sense in giving them the middle finger because they didn't.

Most disappointing is that this topic didn't even divulge new information.
__________________
I enjoy small text.
Resources: Custom Race System
JademusSreg.950, North American region on StarCraft 2
Archmage Owenalacaster is offline  
Old 02-06-2010, 02:20 AM   #30
Belphegor666
User
 
Belphegor666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 787

Submissions (1)

Belphegor666 is on a distinguished road (16)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
If the unit could have both mana and rage together, only showing them rage would be a problem. Otherwise, your point is moot, because you have supplied all information and I would agree with it being the appropriate method of displaying the information.
That example was about simplifying the model. Ok, so the scene changes now you have four stats - hit points, mana, rage, exp; and three bars -hit point, energy point, shield. Since mana and rage can exist separately (generally speaking) you could map mana->energy, rage->shield, which leaves exp hanging. If you however swallow a pill and simplify gameplay making mana & rage->energy you could then make exp->shield.
In second case you display the necessary information by contracting what is and isn't necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
I want the option to display N attributes, not 3, so that I can use that space to give information to the player. It doesn't have to be an attribute, it could be anything. Limiting the mapmaker's ability to utilize that space is unfortunate. That is what sparked this discussion in the first place, since you have apparently forgotten.
I think this where the problem lies. I admit I"m not completely sure what does UI customization means (just visual or spatial customization) the ability to change it and ability to make custom HUD, to me implies that it won't be purely be visual customization and that it will just be harder to modify. I understand your cautious view but if I'm right, and you can redefine UI scripts your entire argument is moot. And the only way to know that is to wait and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Blizzard chose the easy route, not the sanest. It's very simple for them (comparatively) to support N attributes instead of 3 in that space, they simply said "nope, not gonna" for whatever insane reason they might have.
No, it is the sanest. You might want N attributes there (how would you display 10, 20 attributes?). Someone else like Freakazoid might want N resources, I want layered canvas like drawing, someone wants N races, someone else wants a GUI HUD editor, someone else wants a code tool with auto-completion...

Generic programming is the solution but generic programming comes at a steep price: it is harder to understand, harder to test and harder to optimize.
Which means you deliver slower game with more bugs and much later. And yes, I have experience with generic programming.

Last edited by Belphegor666 : 02-06-2010 at 02:22 AM.
Belphegor666 is offline  
 


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Affiliates
The Hubb The JASS Vault Clan WEnW Campaign Creations Clan CBS GamesModding Flixreel Videos

Powered by vBulletin (Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd).
Hosted by www.OICcam.com
IT Support and Services provided by Executive IT Services