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Old 05-30-2008, 06:45 PM   #31
erwtenpeller
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I really like your naming.
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:06 PM   #32
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Woah... Really?

Well, I can't take much of the credit; at least for my Troll race, many of the names came from the Ominous Horizons group. Let's see...
From memory, only the Warbringer, the Mojo Twister, the Potion Doc (came from WoWwiki)... Wow, I really do have a lot of names from them!

Also, I currently dislike the Mojo Twister and Slasher; I swear, I've changed the name/theme of the Slasher at least half-a-dozen times, already. Nothing sounds right.

But I appreciate the sentiment, especially from erwt himself. Can I have your e-autograph? :P
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:51 PM   #33
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Well, it's been about 2 days, (so I believe I can officially bump this).

~~~

So... Does anyone have any thoughts or feedback? Or Belphegor, back with that review yet (I can understand if not, though)? I think right now, the only problems lie with:

Trolls:
- Slasher's name and theme (don't particularly like it)
- Mojo Twister's name and theme (don't particularly like it)
- Vampire Bat's [Bat Swarm] ability (someone said it doesn't work right)
- Mojo Twister's ["Null Cloud'] ability (needs a new name, and it permanently Silences the caster if you accidentally cast it on yourself)
- Localizing + Nulling all the variables that leak (quite a few)

Sooo yeah. And any thoughts on the Naga, or Forsaken? I didn't post those races because I was bored on a Friday night...

Actually, I did have one thing to say about the Naga mechanical unit (currently the "Coral Crusher"). I did have alternatives, although I'm not sure how much better they are.
Alternative #1: "Eye of Destruction" - This, to me, would be really cool. It's just the Eye of Sargeras model. But the idea is, it's like a "tower-unit"; it has no movement speed, and can only move around using this custom Blink w/ a casting time (semi-long cooldown, as well). However, this thing would be heavy in Fortified (?) armor, be Magic Immune, have True Sight, and a mod. Incinerate (called "Eyeburn" or something, no explosion at the end). His attack would be a beam-like projectile, with a .02 attack speed (so that it appears he's shooting lasers!). Basically, it's a giant floating beholder-tower-unit that shoots lazer beams from his eyes! Finally, he'd have a second activated (i.e., not passive) ability to cast a mod. Farsight (for vision) + some sort of debuff in the targeted area (i.e., Eye of Sauron from LotR: Battle for Middle Earth)

Now the problem is, that's really cool and all, sure (at least, I think it's neat). However, one of my biggest pet peeves about building custom races, is that people just throw them together with stuff that sounds good (i.e. Naga races with Makrura and Sea Giant heroes/units, and Murlocs, and stuff like that). So of course, although I can rationalize this away (something about how they're greatest mages have engineered this floating magical destructathon), what is it? It's the Eye of Sargeras, from the campaign! Which sounds lame, personally. So although it's a good idea, and would "fit", it seems rather... n00bish, for lack of a better word. Thoughts?

Alternative #2: "Naga Heliopolis" - Hey, this is from Age of Mythology. Remember those big Greek siege towers, the ones that shot arrows and stuff? Well, I don't have a good model, but I have the idea:
You get a big ol' unit, tall and bulky. Lots of fortified armor. You give it two attacks (?); one that's a ranged Arrow attack, just like an Archer (single arrow, not ballista bolt) against units. Then against buildings, it has a melee-range "pour rocks/oil" attack, which deals some siege damage (little better than the Batrider, probably).
It's abilities are as follows; a mod. Orb of Lightning with a mod. Searing Arrows as the base ability (to give it a "double-arrow attack"), mod. Barrage (to give it a "multi-arrow attack" on top of the "double") and a mod. Phoenix Fire (to give it a passive "shooting arrows at enemies constantly - attack" on top of the "uber multi attack"). All of these would be modified to shoot the same Arrows, with similar arc, speed, and rate-of-fire.
His only other ability (Active) would be a melee-range, building-only target. (It simulates the war tower invading a castle). It would "channel" on the building, dealing constant damage to it; if the target building was destroyed through this process, the enemy soldiers (yours) that you were pumping into the building will spill out (so it summons a buncha troops for you). Thoughts?


Finally, I forgot a few things when I talked about the Naga:
1 - I came up with a possibile "Protoss Pylon" system for them to use; I want them to follow true to the Protoss motto (elite, yet expensive units). Except this has some backstory. We have to wonder why the Naga would choose now to launch their "I hate the world" invasion. The only (?) reason I can think of, is that now they're prepared, whereas earlier on they weren't. My thoughts are; perhaps they cannot actually live without at least being near water for any extended amount of time. Thusly, they'd have to perfect the engineering of some sort of "tunneling water dispersal system", that can harness underground water tables and use it to power the Naga war machine.

Basically, the Mur'gul Slaves would be able to build a "Deep Geyser", which would periodically spray, saturating the surrounding air with water particles, making life on land (and thus war on land) feasible for the vast Naga hosts. Each Naga would have -0.25 HP regeneration (so they'd slowly die). However, the "Geyser" (we'll just call it a Pylon from now on) would have a + Regen aura which would amount to approx. +1.50; thus, as long as each Naga unit stayed within the Pylon's aura, it would have 1.25 HP regen (better than all but Undead).
Also, it would have another aura which would stop the training of new units (or the construction of new buildings) that weren't within the range of the Pylon; on the premise that these buildings, as their builders, require water.
(The only problem I see with this is, of course, having skirmishes; you'll almost definitely not want to build Pylons out to your enemies' base; thus anytime you go creeping or whatever, you'll be slowly dying. That's no good. But there's no more room in the techtree for a "portable Geyser", and I wouldn't want it anyway (too similar to the Undead Obsidian Statue). So what then? Should Geyser's be cheap, fast, and invisible/burrowed (so it's actually feasible to build them all over)? That ruins the normal "Protoss not building everywhere" mechanic. Or should there be an upgrade where each Naga is given a special magic amulet that keeps them alive (only +0.25 HP regen, so they don't die or heal)? And what tier would that be; it's important throughout the game! Thoughts?

2 - Finally, even though the "Mount Hippogryph" ability fails to work with 2 of the same units (like 2 Ghouls merging into an Abomination) for whatever reason, I believe that I've found a solution. So that "Tide Caller", the secondary Naga caster? Her Master-level spell is one where she merges with another "Tide Caller" in order to form a hugely-powerful entity that is the embodiment of a raging, stormy sea. No name yet, we'll just call it the "Archon" for now : ).
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:20 AM   #34
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Hey Kyrbi0

I just checked out your troll test map, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with your units. I dig your style. I'm also into making custom races at the moment, and am working on a Gnoll race, and another undead race. It's funny though, because we share quite a few similar ideas (shift abilty, food from units rather than farms, hijack skill, even a similar climb ability... and so forth)

Anyway, I just wanted to add my 2 cents to your work in progress. Like I said, I really dig your style, particularly the way the units mesh with each other. I only really played around with the heroes, so I don't have any comments for the units and the buildings yet.

Shift - I also used this ability in my race (although I can't take credit for it - I lifted it from the new Zealots in SC2). For this ability, you might also want to add the action Unit - Order (Ordered unit) to Night Elf Warden - Blink (Position of (Target unit of issued order)). That way, the Shifter (Sorry, I forget the unit's name) blinks when you manually attack a specific unit.

Also, in my ability, I added another trigger (E- Unit is attacked, C- attacking unit is Shifter, A-blink Shifter to position of attacked unit). That way the Shifter does his blink thing passively, as well. I don't know if you want something like that or not, that's just the way I did it.

Jungle Dartmon - I like the idea of a stealthy, assassin type hero who appears from nowhere, poisons his enemies, and then vanishes, but his ultimate ability seems really under powered. Also, his Crawl ability says that he can still cast spells while crawling, but the only skill he can use is that net ultimate spell. Finally, I know it's based of the Mecha Goblin skill, but I don't like how it costs mana for him to stand up.

Flank - This was another ultimate that I found really under-powered. I can see how it could be useful in the game, under the right circumstances, but the stun isn't long enough, and the range is too short. To me, this skill might work better as a regular hero ability, although it already plays a similar role to his Battle Charge skill.

Also, his Flaming Spear spell would damage units before the missile hit them. But that's nothing really important.

Grim Ward - I love the idea of this spell. To me, though, this spell seems over powered. Especially compared to the other ultimate skills. The skeletons raise so quickly and last a fairly long time. I think in an actual match, this ultimate would be devastating. I would weaken it a little, if it was mine.

The other thing I was going to mention is spell books. Sure, it's an extra few steps, but if you add your passive skills to spell books, and then disable them at Initialization, then you don't have those black icons. Again, not a big deal, but it's a little thing that makes the map look a lot more slick.

Seriously though, it's a great race. I'll play around with it some more and let you know what I think of the actual units and buildings (awesome Jungle Towers, by the way), if you care.

Peace
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:24 AM   #35
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Awexome! Finally, a review! (I'm lovin' it ba-da-ba-buh-buh...). Ok, this is cool. One doesn't meet a lot of other serious techtree makers, y'know?

Out of curiousity, what kind of resources are you using for your map? Like, do you know JASS, or just GUI (like moi)? Do you have all/most custom models and stuff, or you working with the Blizzard stuff (like moi)?

Also (and I can understand if you'd rather not divulge), what kind of heroes/units/abilities did you have planned for your races? Always looking for more information.

Now let's see, answering concerns...

*Shift* - Funnily enough, I based my "Shift" off of Sc2, as well... Except I was thinking more in line of the Stalkers; y'know, how they blink everywhere? Anyway, I would add that "attacking or being attacked" bit in. Except
- I don't want it to be too similar to the Sc2 Zealot's "Charge", in case I make it for another race.
- I used to have it work "if attacked", and it got kind of annoying; you'd be trying to run away, an enemy unit would ranged attack (or get a last melee hit in), and he'd suddenly warp back into the fray; made running away annoying.

Basically, the only way I'd change it (if I could; would probably need JASS, though) would be to make it more like the Sc2 Stalker's "Blink"; it wouldn't stop them from walking after the first order, and if the cooldown was up while they were still walking, they would continue to use the "Blink".
Oh, and it's the "Tiki Warrior".

*Ultimates* - Well meh. I think I was working towards the best-fitting ability for each hero; not necessarily something cool like Resurrection (my coding ability also limited my works...) But I think, for each:
Grim Ward: one of my favorites; took me years to work out (finally realized Pocket Factory worked perfectly). Got the idea from beta-screenshots of Blizzard; it had a Grim Ward as well. Glad you like it (more later).
Aura of Spirits: Although an Aura ultimate is rather unorthodox, I think it only makes the most sense with this guy. (more later).
Multi-Trap: I have never liked the name on this ability. Also, you're right, it's a tad lackluster of an ultimate. But I couldn't think of what to switch it out with (make one of his other abilities an ultimate). If you've got a better idea, I'd love to hear it (not sarcasm).
Flank: Though this ability may or may not need buffing, it's also one of my favorites. After thinking of the idea (one of my few original ideas, copyright = me :P), I was amazed that I could get it to work with just GUI. So yeah, this is awexome. I'll probably buff it (more later).

*Jungle Dartmon* - Meh, he's probably my least favorite hero; perhaps he needs more love. As stated above, I'd switch out his ultimate (I have in the past), but I couldn't make/think of anything else "ultimate enough" to fit, so I put it back.
Basically, are you saying that it's underpowered because it needs a buff (like range, or duration)? Or do you think it's just a semi-boring ability, and he needs an entirely new ultimate? If so, I'm open for ideas; I was at a loss with this guy... Though I agree, something to mesh with his Crawling would be neat, like a "Headcracker". But that sounds even more boring (single-target mega damage, + debuff + bleeding effect? bleh).
Oh, and with the "spells while Crawling"... I guess I meant that generally. If he had any other spells, you could cast them. But Stranglethorn Venom is passive (and attack-based), and Deadly Aim is attack-based (no attacking while Crawling). So Multi-Trap is the only one that applies; personally, it might be overpowered in that situation.
And yes, I lament that it costs mana to stand up. Lol.

*Warbringer* - *Flank* - So what do you suggest? Greater range, longer stun, actually dealing damage? I'm definitely keeping it as his ultimate, so that's out of the question.
The Flaming Spear... Meh, just the limits of coding. I believe it's based off of Frost Nova or something, which explains the "instant-damage" bit.
(Although he's one of the few Troll units that doesn't fit "my vision" of Trollish barbarianism... I'd say he's my favorite hero, perhaps. I just love the synergy of his skills (Flaming Spear an approaching army, Battle Charge in to get close, Warcry to debuff + force their retreat, then Flank to stun/surround the running-away units/Hero).

*Grim Ward + Aura of Spirits* - Well, I'm glad you pointed out the over/underpowered-ness of this/these abilities. Really, these were just rough guesses made by me; I really don't play melee much at all, so I only have a feel for balance when I can compare it to existing stuff. These abilities that summon a buncha stuff are really just needing testing; so I'm glad you raised them for concern. What can be done to make this more balanced (slower spawn rate, weaker skeletons, shorter skeleton life span, etc). Same with AoS.

*Spell Books?* - Hm, I'd heard of these, but didn't want to complicate things. How do you mean by adding them in and disabling them at initialization? Because if I'm not mistaken, many of the passive abilities this applies to are used mid-game... But I'll take a look at what's involved, if you have the time.
(Curses, that means all the time I spent making a solid black icon will have gone to waste! :P)

Really, though, I mostly appreciate this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by theRowboat
...Like I said, I really dig your style, particularly the way the units mesh with each other....Seriously though, it's a great race..

Because that's what I've been all about this whole time; making a custom (Troll) race that makes the most sense; where each unit, hero, and building feels like that race should have. All the time I'm asking myself (esp. about names) "does this fit?"... So thanks, I'm glad that they mesh; that's exactly what I was working towards.

Also,

Quote:
Originally Posted by theRowboat
I'll play around with it some more and let you know what I think of the actual units and buildings (awesome Jungle Towers, by the way), if you care.

Yes, most definitely. No rush, but I would absolutely love to see your thoughts on the rest; between you and me I've felt a bit "starved", what with nobody posting for half-a-week.

(Oh, and where did you come from?? I mean, you have no threads, and one post (the one you just wrote). No rep, nothing submitted; yet you joined 2 years ago. Did you come out of the woodwork all for me? I'm flattered :P)
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:27 AM   #36
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Null Ward is the best spell name in there, you'd have to be mental to drop it.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:30 PM   #37
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But I did...? Unfortunately, the ward wasn't working correctly, so I changed it into just a "cloud"... But that was a lame name, and it perma-silences the caster if you accidentally cast it on him.

Is there a way to get a passive "silence aura" connected to a unit? Because originally it was just "create a ward", then a mod. Cloud to have the Silence effect; but the Silence effect was outliving the ward (even if the ward died, the spell was still being cast by the dummy caster).
I guess I could give him an aura, then say:
E: unit casts an ability (to stop mana leak)
C: casting unit has buff (Null Ward)
A: stop casting unit

Meh?
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:50 PM   #38
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Yo

I played around with some of the units, and they're pretty cool. Some questions though:

Blood drink - The bat's blood drink steals life from mechanical units, I don't know if thats the way you planned it or not.

Tracking - I still have no idea what this ability does

Hide in trees - Is it supposed to kill the tree when you hide in it? Is this so that you can't have two wall climbers hiding in the same tree?

Are the catapult units supposed to be able to launch rocks at air units? I like how you can switch them up mid battle (my seige units do the same thing)

I really liked the bat swarm ability. It adds some cool tactical elements. And the bad vibes skill is fun too.



Quote:
*Warbringer* - *Flank* - So what do you suggest? Greater range, longer stun, actually dealing damage?

Yeah, thats what I would have suggested. It just sort of makes it more MIGHTY.

Grim Ward - I would just lower the spawn rate. But I haven't tried it in an actual game, so maybe it's fine the way it is. It just seems way stronger than any of the other spells.

If you add a disabled spellbook to a unit, it still gets the passive abilities within that spellbook. Disabling the spellbook at init just makes it so there isn't an icon to click on.



My map uses mostly Blizzard models. I grabbed some pretty rad custom models from this site and some others too. I trigger with GUI, because I suck and I still haven't figured out JASS. I didn't even know I had joined this site. Just came on yesterday and saw your thread and decided to comment, but it turned out I registered a long time ago and totally forgot about it. It tripped me out.
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:44 PM   #39
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*Blood Drink* - Ah, something to fix (if possible; probably just change the "Targets" field). Thanks.

*Tracking* - Then I'll have to fix the tooltip. For future reference, it passively gives a chance that the Hunter's attack will leave the "Tracked" buff on an attacked enemy unit, giving you sight of the unit for a short time. Basically, they're running away and you "tag" 'em; then you can see where they go for a little bit. Not a bad idea, but I don't personally like the execution of it.

(Frankly, I'm not an fan of this ability; I'd like to replace it with just a passive sight-range upgrade or something, kinda like Long Rifles for the Rifleman).

*Hide In Trees* - Isn't this called "Climb", now? Or did I forget to change the name? Anyway...
No, not really. If I knew JASS, I'd make an ability where you target a single tree, climb up it, and then possibly could walk around on the treetops. But since this is GUI-land (where I try to use as little coding as possible, to keep memory leaks away), I'm stuck with using a modified "Force of Nature" (thus the dead tree) that summons an invisible "climbing" guy, along with a trigger that kills the casting unit (the guy on the ground). This approximates the effect of him climbing the tree.
Although that's a good line... "Why does it kill the tree? How can he climb on thin air??" "Oh, well, because I wanted to avoid 2 Wall Climbers "Climbing" the same tree..." "Oh, of course; genius!"

And yes, I'm aware that he's called the "Wall Climber", yet he climbs trees. Whatever :/

*Mangonels* - Yes, they're supposed to attack air. This is (sorta) balanced by him not being able to attack buildings (?!). The idea is sort of a modular, lighter Catapult; throws rock shards or tiny darts, but only at units. It's actually one of a new type of unit I came up with, known as "anti-unit units". You know, you have "anti-air", and "anti-building" (mech) and "anti-caster"... But no "anti-unit" (also no "anti-Hero", which is exactly what the Tiki Warriors are! :P).

*Bat Swarm* - Thanks. Got that idea from Age of Mythology; the Fenris Wolf Brood.

*Bad Vibes* - Thanks again. Got that idea from the now-cancelled Ominous Horizons mod, with their "The Storm Within" spell on the Tauren Skywatcher.

*Flank* - Cool.
*Grim Ward* - 'K

*Spellbook* - So... At "Map Init.", I put "disable X, Y, Z, etc Spellbooks for Player 1-12". Then, anytime I would add a passive ability that shouldn't appear, I instead add a spellbook with the ability inside it, and it'll keep the effect, but no icon.
That still doesn't make sense; wouldn't I have to disable the spellbook after adding the ability to the unit? Because that might get too hectic, trigger-wise (what with adding/removing abilities constantly).

*Gnoll Race* - Cool. Well, if you ever need help or ideas, this topic is open to you; I mean, it's mainly for my stuff, but I named it generically on purpose, so others would feel free to say/add stuff.

Lol @ first-time poster. :P (j/k)
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:08 PM   #40
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*Tracking* - Ahhh, okay I get it. Seems like a neat idea. More original than a sight or range upgrade, anyway. Either way is cool, though.

*Spellbook* - Yeah, just add the disabled spellbook to a unit, and he gets all the passive skills inside, without the icons. I don't know how, but it works. (Although it's not that important, and it's a pain adding all your skills into separate spellbooks in the object editor)

*Mangonels* - Okay, that sounds cool. So is the only siege unit the Bat Riders, or am I forgetting somebody?

*passive Silence Aura* I made a unit with this aura, and I did it by creating a modified Silence skill, with a 1 second duration. I made a 1 second periodic timer that picked units with the Silence Aura buff, and created a dummy to cast the modified Silence on them. Probably not the most effective way, but it seemed to work fine.



In case you're curious, here are the heroes from my Gnoll race. I posted this on another site, but didn't get any feedback. Most of my skills are finished, but there are still some missing, and others I don't like and will probably change. You'll notice there's a quilboar and a kobold in there. Most of the troops in the race are gnolls, but there are quilboar and kobold caster units in there. This is mainly because there aren't enough gnoll models to use. I don't know how it fits into the Warcraft mythos, but if the orcs can team up with trolls and taurens, why can't the gnolls get some outside help too?


----
Razormane Warfrenzy (?? could use a better name. just thought it sounded cool in WOW)
Strength based Tank-type hero

Abilities

- Quill shield
Basically a personal Thorns Aura. Returns percentage of damage to melee attackers. Not especially original, but it fits the character.

- Focus
Each time the Warfrenzy uses this ability, it adds a damage multiplyer to his very next attack. The idea is that he can charge up one brutal attack before going into battle, and then crush one enemy.

- Thousand needles
An AOE damage spell. Launches a barrage of needles at enemies. Big damage, relatively high mana cost and cooldown.

* Spawn of Agamaggan
Summons one bad ass giant boar. The boar is a ranged attacker with spkie shield, and frenzy. He also has a passive multishot ability which causes him to attack all nearby units, including friendlies. He is especially useful when fighting large groups of enemies.

-----
Gnoll Overseer
Strength based, healer/buffer type hero

Abilities

- Scavenge
AOE healing spell. Cast on a group of corpses, and then nearby friendly units get healed / # of corpses.

- Rally
2 part spell. First, the Overseer marks all friendly units in an AOE. Then he is able to instantly summon them to his location. Useful for getting troops in and out of battle quickly.

- ???
I was thinking he needs a good single target debuff spell to use on enemies. Any ideas?

* Rampage
His ultimate ability is basically a multi unit bloodlust. Greatly increases attack speed of nearby troops for a short time.

-----
Gnoll Shadow Weaver
Ranged, assassin type hero. Low HP, high damage

Abilities

- Vulture
Summons an invincible and semi-controllable vulture. The vulture cannot attack, but can be used to scout, and has his own Dread aura, which lowers enemy attack damage and armor.

- Shadow call
Casts on a unit, and causes its shadow to come to life, and tear shit up. The shadow's HP is linked to the target unit, and so he dies when the original target unit dies.

- Vendetta
This ability is casted on a single unit, and causes the Shadow Weaver to do massive damage when attacking that unit only.

* Shadow slash
- Think omnislash, with cool shadowy effects.


-----
Kobold Mastermind
Intelligence based hero
Ranged spell casting hero, with low HP and high Mana

Abilities

- Dust storm
Unleashes a cloud of dust that slows down enemy attack speed and movement, while giving friendly units a greater chance of evading attacks

- Rock drop (needs a cooler name)
Single unit damage and AOE stun. Drops a large rock from the sky. Kablam!!

- ???
Having trouble coming up with good ideas for another spell. Thinking maybe some type of trap, or ward that activates when enemies approach. Any ideas?

* Guardian Golem
Channeling spell. Kobold summons a mighty golem, but has to continue channeling to keep the golem activated. I'm not sure about this spell, plus the razormane has a summon as his ultimate, so I may scrap this idea.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:03 AM   #41
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*Tracking* - Yeah, it's a neat idea... Not sure I did it well, though.

*Spellbook* - Well, I'm familiar with how it works; I just don't think it would work well for where you use it over and over (buffs and spells and such).

*Siege* - I think so... Yeah. There used to be a unit with a Siege attack (the Slasher).

*passive Silence Aura* - Well, that would definitely work... But periodic functions leak like crazy; that's bad for the game (esp. long games).

*Gnoll Race* - Awexome, nice stuff. I'll get more into it in a sec.
But I like your inclusion of other races; it fills out the race. Although I think Quillboars were in Kalimdor, not Azeroth/Lordaeron. Still, they all fit; kinda like the "Feral Races of Azeroth" race.

Razormane Warfrenzy: Yeah, I agree; "Warfrenzy" is definitely better as a proper name (like "Warfrenzy, the Quillboar Warrior"). As for the hero name, I'd say use something like: Tribal Chieftain, Warlord, Warchief, War Chieftain, or maybe even Warbringer (I don't mind if you use mine, probably).

I like all of his abilities. However, other than Quill Shield, they're all really damage-dealing or damage-based; he's not so much of a tank hero, really. So I'd either change his theme, or his abilities (theme is easier, just say "damage-dealer" :P).

With Focus, I'd almost say to add some kind of heavy debuff to it (like, he charges up a brutal hit that both multiplies the damage of his next attack, and makes the next attack "Gore" an opponent, crippling them with lower attack damage/movespeed/etc. (= a dummy-casted Cripple on the "attacked unit").

Especially the ultimate; it seems simple (a summon with some abilities), but Str. heroes don't often get a summon. But it attacks friendlies, too? That may deter people... Otherwise, nice. Has a unique ability (the multishot)

Gnoll Overseer: Also helpful; Str, but not just plain ol' damage or tanking. Good niche.

- How did you work out Scavenge (base ability + triggers)? I have a similar ability for my Forsaken Dark Apothecary hero.
- Rally sounds really cool; I would have it work on only a select group, though (like, an AoE target, where you select up to X units (12?)). Otherwise, neato; target + summon over and over. Also, it makes the user want to keep those units alive (so he doesn't have to keep remaking groups).
- Unfortunately, I'm at a loss for cool abilities on this guy... But it seems you've got the "tactician instead of raging warlord" bit down good so far with this guy. Perhaps some kind of group-related buff... Oh! Of course! You don't have a single aura, when (all but one of the races) have 2! So use an aura; it's perfect for the "healing/debuffing" thing you're going for!
Unfortunately, I can't think of a good, new one. Perhaps +HP regen and armor?
- Rampage sounds cool and helpful; sometimes I find it hard to remember that an ability doesn't need to be "flashy" or crazy to be a good ultimate, and this serves it's purpose perfectly. It's less "tactician" than it is "raging warlord", but it does buff, so meh. If the "Warchief" guy didn't have the spawn-ultimate, I'd say this ability goes to him, though.

Gnoll Shadow Weaver: Seems nice and simple; makes sense.

- Vulture really seems neat; I would never have thought of a random, invincible summon like that. However, how did you do it? "Semi-controllable"? I would put that "Critter Wander" ability on an invincible Vulture-model unit, then give it the Dread Aura and a lot of sight range... But how did you work out the "Semi-Controllable" bit?
- Same with Shadow Call; how does this work (the summon w/ linking)? Triggers? Also, I like how the ability sounds; but I'd suggest a different name (Shadow Weaver casting Shadow Call?). Perhaps Dark Essence, Soul Rip, Warrior of Darkness, Gloom Knight (if the shadow-creature is humanoid?), etc...?
- Vendetta: Nice. No comment other than that.
- Sorry, but same as above; how did you get this Shadow Slash to work as well? I have a similar-to-Omnislash ability made with Mirror Image, but I assume you went for the real thing... How?
(Also, same as above with the "Shadow Call"; maybe think of another name. Although, it is his ultimate, so maybe you can let it go.)

Kobold Mastermind: I love how you used the name "Mastermind", very cool. But looking at his abilities, he's really more of a "Geomancer" or "Earth Shaman" than anything else. And since Kobold's have Geomancers, I'd highly suggest using that as the hero name.

- Dust Storm = simple and helpful; useful and creative. not much else to say; good job.
- Rock Drop... I agree, needs another name. Well, since the animation (I believe) is him swinging his axe/hammer, and you'd have the rock flying out from him to the enemy... Maybe something like "Rock Kick", or "Rock Smash". Also, add in some kind of effect; single-target Oh, never mind; I see the "AoE stun" part. Good stuff, useful and simple, again.
***Oh, wait! Just remembered! Ok, there's this cool, unused, hidden model that would fit perfectly (?) for this ability (with a little name change).
Actually, I can't remember the exact file path for the model; but it's something like "Treant missile". It looks like brown, rocky roots spiking up around a single unit. (This doesn't explain the AoE stun; maybe a mini-earthquake made by pushing rock spikes). Regardless, this is a cool, unused model; also makes it easier to think of a name (Rock Spike? Impaling Earth?)
- Make this an aura, too; probably something related to earth.
***Hey! instead of (or also) using that "rocky spike" model for the 3rd ability, you could make an aura that damages (rock spikes) enemies if they... do something. Attack, heal, run away, come near... could be periodic damage (mod. Permanent Immolation). Not sure here, but an aura would definitely fit.
- Guardian Golem: you're right, fits nicely, and most summons aren't channeling... But you already have a summon ultimate, and 2 summons total, so this is too much. Normally I wouldn't know what to say, but I do have (at least) one earth-related ultimate idea: "Dust Stomp".
"Dust Stomp" (needs a new name) comes from the Tauren race of the Ominous Horizons mod. You have the guy channel for ~15 (?) seconds. While channeling, dust and stuff is swirling around the caster, heavily slowing nearby units (friendlies too?). If he can successfully channel for the full time, he slams his foot/hammer down, creating a huge expanding pillar of dust/earth, heavily damaging all nearby foes (and giving a miss chance, for being blinded by dust). Change it to work for you, but that's the basic idea.

~~~

Oh yeah, and it'd be awexome to see the rest of your Gnoll race, as well as the undead-ish one. Great stuff you have here!
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Old 06-07-2008, 07:36 PM   #42
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*Passive silence aura* - periodic functions do leak, but not if you clean it up with Custom Script. Although I just realized that doing the aura this way would make it useless on units with Spell Immunity.

*Razormane Hero - yeah you're right. Focus needs a debuff to go with it. I like the gore idea, too. Thanks, I'm going to use it.

Yeah, his skills aren't very Tank-y. I might scrap Thousand Needles and give him some other ability... maybe a combination Taunt + Temporary Hardened Skin spell.


his Summon - Do strength heroes not often get summons? Off the top of my head I can think of the Pitlord and the Dreadlord.. I guess Beastmaster too, but he doesn't count. The fact that the giant boar attacks friendly units too makes him pretty dangerous, but that's sort of what I was going for. Not really controllable, just a pissed off force of nature.


*Gnoll Overseer - yeah, an aura would fit nicely with this guy. I don't know why I didn't think of that... I guess I just find auras to be sort of dull, but it work as a good passive skill for him. Are there any good buff auras that haven't been done?

For Scavenge. just use any AOE spell as a base (I think I used silence). Then use triggers to count the number of corpses within the AOE, and heal units within range of the caster N times number of corpses counted.

*Gnoll Shadow Weaver - I gave his vulture the locust ability (to make him unselectable), and the Tornado wander ability (like critter wander, but faster). So he just flies around the map randomly. The Shadow Weaver can then "call" the vulture to his location (a trigger orders vulture to move to position of shadow weaver). That way the gnoll can take advantage of the vultures dread aura and true sight if he's going into battle. I can't decide if the vulture should level up with the ability (greater sight range, more powerful aura, etc) or if the gnoll should be able to control more vultures at each level. What do you think?

You're right, Shadow Call is a bad name. Dark Essence sounds much cooler. The spell works by creating a unit-type of the target, then I change it's transparency and vertex coloring, and add some attachments to make him look shadowy. I put him and the target into a unit group and kill the shadow if the target dies.

*Shadow slash - I just triggered this one like the all the other omni slash skills out there. It's not too original though, so I may try to come up with a different ultimate idea. It should still be a multi unit damage, I think.

*Kobold Hero - Yeah, I originally named this guy the Geomancer, but then I decided to use that name for the regular kobold caster units.

Rock drop - yeah this is a fun spell, but it needs a new name. I ripped off the idea from an old SNES game, the Secret of Mana. You just basically summon a boulder 30 feet above your targets head. Sort of like falling anvils in Bugs Bunny cartoons.

How far along are you with the rest of your races? I just glanced at your naga stuff - seems cool. I like the Eye of Destruction idea. I've never seen a unit that can move only by blinking. Very rad.

What is Ominous Horizons?

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Old 06-07-2008, 09:21 PM   #43
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*Custom Script* - Hey, speaking of which, that's basically the last thing that my map needs! I have to clean up all the memory leaks; I'm just lazy, which is compounded by the fact that I'm not exactly sure what to do. I mean, I know it's basically this; "set to a variable, make variable local, destroy local variable". However, I've also heard you have to "null" the local before destroying it; and can I use a variable (say "UnitTarget") for every unit-target ability trigger I have? Or do I have to have "VoodooTarget", "FlamingSpearTarget", etc etc etc?
Oh, and do I put all that "save, localize, destroy/null" stuff inside or outside of a "Pick Every Unit"-type loop? Meh, stuff like that.
So, assuming you've already done so, how does one really do it?

*Razormane hero* - Cool, glad you like it. Came from my Naga Myrmidons.
Speaking of which, I don't know if you noticed, but you can do a whole bunch of useful ability triggers, just using "unit is attacked". I mean think about it; it's Warcraft. So a lot of what you'll be doing depends on being attacked.
You could make an autocast self-buff that gives you a boost to attack speed and a chance to deal 2x damage (Critical Strike). You could make another buff spell that gives a unit +3 defense and a chance to dodge attacks (Evasion).
Stop me if you already know how to work this, but I just feel like I really oughta tell you; I mean, it's made many things much easier.

E: A unit is attacked
C: (sometimes you can use "attacking/attacked unit = [unit]"
A: IF - attacking/attacked unit has buff "Buff"
THEN - add ability "Ability" (passive enhancer) to attacking/attacked unit
ELSE - remove ability "Ability" from attacking/attacked unit

So yeah. Learn that, and use it for loads of stuff.

[Taunt + temp. mod. Hard. Skin]: Ooh nice. Just like Axe's ability from DotA (not to deter you from using it; on the contrary, it's a nice ability).

*Str. Summons* - Now that you mention it, at least 3 Str. heroes have summons... I guess it's not that uncommon, darn. Usually I just attribute summoning to the "caster" Int. hero.
But you're right, the "friendly fire" bit makes him more tactical; perhaps only using him when most of your army's dead anyway? Or go into battle with fewer units so you lose less.
Than again, you could make his whole theme around "victory, no matter the sacrifice"; then you could give him abilities that hurt his own troops to buff himself.

*Undone Auras* - Auras may be boring, but they're cool and a necessity in a race. Besides, at the very least you can count on it to let you do less work :P.
As for ones that haven't been done... That's hard. Nothing undone is easy to make, unfortunately; you'll have to use hidden Spellbooks (or a black-icon mini-aura that levels with the ability, or even some of that "unit is attacked" stuff up above, like I did for Headhunt Aura!)
I'd say that "HP regen + armor" that I mentioned a few posts ago would both fit and hasn't been done... Otherwise, just mesh auras together that have been done (like I did). Remember not to make it too powerful, though.

*Scavenge* - Of course! And here I was, using dummy casters!
Actually, this is almost funny, let me tell you: I had the base spell as "Inferno" or something, which made a Dummy Caster. This DC had a mod. Raise Dead skill (no mana, no cooldown, etc). He would use this mod. Raise Dead super-fast on every nearby corpse, which would spawn a second, different Dummy Caster. These Dummy Casters... Hadn't worked this far, but I figured they'd have a tiny lifespan, and a modified (reversed) AoE Damage upon Death ability, so that they "explode" and heal nearby friendly units.
Waaaay too complicated. Bleh. I like yours better :P

*Vulture* - Ohhh... I thought you couldn't use Locust (would make him entirely unselectable); but I didn't count on the second ability. Y'know, I usually don't think of stuff like that; probably because it clogs up the command card, and because no one else does it. (Not that it's a bad thing; no way. Those are cool abilities, Rally and Vulture).
As to how he levels... Meh. I would almost say to do both, but not so big a boost in sight range/speed. Probably just make it 1/2/3 per leve, with a low boost to sight/speed; makes it zillions times more effective.
Oh, and how do you get the "call vulture" trigger to work, since they aren't preplaced? Do you set them to a variable group upon summoning? Or do you just use a "pick every unit = vulture = owned by casting unit"?

Oh, and I know the whole idea was to use Vultures, and that's definitely cooler than this, but wouldn't it be funny if instead, he sent out 1/2/3 of his little Gnollish rogue minions; little Gnolls, tinted darker, who run around the map scouting for you? (I know, lame compared to flying death birds. :P)

*Dark Essence* - Glad you like it. How do you set (a) unit(s) to a unit group variable?

*Omnislash* - Oh, I've never seen Omnislash triggered. (I mean, I know that it is, I just haven't done one or seen others do it; only played with it). Cool beans.

*Kobold Hero Renaming* - Nevertheless, I'd seriously consider changing his name; "Mastermind" is cool, but doesn't fit nearly as well, given his abilities; and you can just change the unit-name to something simpler, like "Disciple of the Earth", or "Terra Shaman".

*Race Progress* - Well, I'm glad you asked :P. Actually, the progress of "actual completion" is showed by the bars in my signature (after this message, for example). However, I have all my races almost entirely planned out. The only things left to do (other than make them, of course) is to find out what works and what doesn't (I don't always know that), and then to flesh everything out; of course, many of my unit/ability/hero/etc ideas are half-baked, or need improvement, or whatever. Or sometimes I need an ability, but I don't currently have anything to fill the gap.
So really, most of my stuff is "done". But really, I haven't made much more than the Troll race, half the Forsaken race, and a bit of everything else (still needs to be compiled into one map, unfortunately).

*Eye of Destruction* - Thanks. I like the idea, but I'm not sure it fits (for reasons stated above). Thoughts?

*Ominous Horizons* - Mwahahaha!!! A question I know the answer to! :P
Ominous Horizons was the name of a Total Conversion mod, back in 2003ish. They (Tijil and BHav = co-creators, modeler + triggerer, respectively) started out small. But eventually it turned into a full 4-race conversion, accepting only the best modeling and skinning out there (all from scratch, no geomerging or non-custom textures) and expanded races (more units, a T3 uber building, etc). Even some custom race stuff (custom Tavern heroes, creeps). And then a campaign based on all that!
Yes, they were ambitious... Too ambitious. After years of off-and-on work, and with the continued absence of Tijil and BHav themselves, the rest of their team slowly burned itself off. It is a sad testament of an amazing project idea that went too far.
However, they made extensive progress; they nearly finished the Tauren race and had started work on the Troll race. They had plans for all the others (although they kept telling themselves to "focus on the present"). They have several custom models present in their latest test maps (the fact that they had test maps is a testament in and of itself). Tons of concept art, forum discussions, and techtree stuff was put forth.

Why do I know so much? I found their forums on Samods and archived nearly everything important (to race-making) onto several Word documents. I also saved all of their concept art, and have e-mailed most of the team (including Tijil and BHav themselves) for information. I recently got ahold of the Epsilon test map, and .rar's filled with unimaginable stuff from both the co-creators (unfortunately, I don't have a .rar-opener at home, so I have yet to see what's inside...). Anyway, that's Ominous Horizons. They had amazing, multi-person work, and were full-to-bursting with awexome ideas. Most of my Troll race was originally from their Troll race (before The Great Purge), and even now, there are a lot of references and ideas from them.

Does this make me the OH Expert, or am I just having delusions of grandeur? :D
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Custom Script* - Hey, speaking of which, that's basically the last thing that my map needs!
Man, taking care of leaks can be so annoying. Here’s a tutorial on removing leaks. It explains it better than I could.
http://world-editor-tutorials.thehel...php?view=27242

I also downloaded a little application called Leak Checker, or something like that. Just import your triggers into it, and it tells you where all the leaks are, and how to fix them. I’d tell you to go download it, but I think I read that you can’t download anything, for some reason. Can you receive files via email or msn or something?

Quote:
you can do a whole bunch of useful ability triggers, just using "unit is attacked".

Yeah, a lot of my spells use the Unit is attacked Event. It doesn’t work perfectly for every situation though, because the trigger fires when the unit starts his attack, not when he lands a hit, so in some cases it can be spammed. You probably already know this, though.


[
Quote:
Taunt + temp. mod. Hard. Skin]: Ooh nice. Just like Axe's ability from DotA (not to deter you from using it; on the contrary, it's a nice ability).

Oh, I didn’t know this skill has already been done. I’ve never really played DOTA.


Quote:
But you're right, the "friendly fire" bit makes him more tactical; perhaps only using him when most of your army's dead anyway? Or go into battle with fewer units so you lose less.
I was thinking he is a summon, but with his multishot skill, he acts like an AOE damage spell like Death & Decay.

Quote:
*Scavenge* - Of course! And here I was, using dummy casters!
Actually, this is almost funny, let me tell you: I had the base spell as "Inferno" or something, which made a Dummy Caster. This DC had a mod. Raise Dead skill (no mana, no cooldown, etc). He would use this mod. Raise Dead super-fast on every nearby corpse, which would spawn a second, different Dummy Caster. These Dummy Casters... Hadn't worked this far, but I figured they'd have a tiny lifespan, and a modified (reversed) AoE Damage upon Death ability, so that they "explode" and heal nearby friendly units.
Waaaay too complicated. Bleh. I like yours better :P
Ouch! That method does seem a little complicated, but it would probably work fine. There are several ways to skin a cat.


Quote:
Oh, and how do you get the "call vulture" trigger to work, since they aren't preplaced? Do you set them to a variable group upon summoning? Or do you just use a "pick every unit = vulture = owned by casting unit"?


When the vulture is first created, I set it to a variable, with an array. Then when the gnoll calls him, I just order the variable to move.

Quote:
Oh, and I know the whole idea was to use Vultures, and that's definitely cooler than this, but wouldn't it be funny if instead, he sent out 1/2/3 of his little Gnollish rogue minions; little Gnolls, tinted darker, who run around the map scouting for you? (I know, lame compared to flying death birds. :P)

It’s funny you say that, because I had downloaded a hyena model, and was using a hyena as my Shadow Caster’s pet/familiar. I think the vulture works better though, since he can fly, and all. (Also, I don’t know if gnolls and hyenas exist together, or if that’s like Taurens raising cattle, or Goofy owning a pet dog)
Quote:
*Dark Essence* - Glad you like it. How do you set (a) unit(s) to a unit group variable?

Create a Unit Group, set it as a variable. Then Action – Add (unit) to (Unit Group variable)

Quote:
*Eye of Destruction* - Thanks. I like the idea, but I'm not sure it fits (for reasons stated above). Thoughts?
Are you worried that Eye of Sargeras doesn’t fit with the rest of the race? I don’t know, it sounds good to me. The Eye of Sargeras model looks pretty ambiguous, and definitely something that Naga mages could have created. I wouldn’t sweat it. Again, I think it’s a unique idea, and you should do it.

Ominous Horizons – Wow, that sounds cool, but indeed overly ambitious. I’d like to check it out. Can you send me some highlights? (Also, how do you not have a program to open RARs?!?)

Just curious; why did you remove friendly fire on the boars in your troll map?

And I like your idea of Geysers for the Naga. Having the Naga units slowly die if they’re away from a pylon adds some cool tactical elements, but it could also be a pain in the ass. It fits with the race, but I might add a trigger that would remove their HP degeneration if they go under 10% of their max HP or something. Or maybe instead of them losing health, they could have some movement or attack debuffs or something… I’ll think about it some more, but I like the idea.

I haven’t read your other ideas on Naga or your Forsaken race. I’ll check them out and get back to you
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Old 06-09-2008, 07:53 PM   #45
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I could probably get it over Yahoo. PM me your e-mail and I'll send an e-mail for a reply, etc. Otherwise, just give me the link to the download itself; I'm making a list of [Things to Download], to take advantage of the tiny window of time I have.

*Vulture + Variable Array* - Is that MUI and MPI??

*Eye of Sargeras* - Not exactly. What I'm worried about is this: let's say a random n00b decides to make a Naga map. What do they put in? Sea Giants, Makrura (lobster-men), Murloc heroes, etc... All of those are crazy! There's absolutely no lore to back those up (and don't give me nonsense about "well, they enslaved the Mur'guls, so they could enslave the others".) Those guys are bitter enemies to the core! So no way would they work together!

Anyway, another thing they might do is go straight from the campaign; i.e., have a Demon Hunter hero (don't laugh, I've seen it before :/). Also, remember the Eye of Sargeras, the point of the plot in TFT? I'd think that they'd put that in ("hey1 there's this big orb of magic that can shoot lzaerrs and haz magic and stuf").

*Boars + Friendly Fire?* - Wha? What's Friendly-Fire?
*checks the WE* Oh, just checked the code. I put that in so that you can't kill your own Boars; it wouldn't do to have them being killed off accidentally during battle or something.

*Rar Opener* - WinRAR costs money to get, if I'm not mistaken. And other than that, I don't know of any (legal) free/shareware to download to open them; if you do, that'd be awexome.

*Ominous Horizons* - Erm, I dunno. I can ask. I mean, normally I'd be all "whatever", but this was a big project, and after compiling so much, I'm loath to just release it... Let me get back to you on that.

So because it seems like something a lore-less noob would use, I am... hesitant to use it myself, regardless of how cool the idea is.
(I also like the Coral Crusher, and would hate to lose that idea... But I agree, the EoD is better).
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=It was brought to my attention recently that the ":P" icon stands for "tongue-sticking out", and not the "smirky half-smile" I was using it for all these years. = Thusly I apologize for any unintentional juvenilization of my messages to anyone so afflicted.=
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