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|05-28-2008, 05:34 AM||#17|
Join Date: Jul 2006
Looks interesting. I don't have the enthusiasm for World Editing that's necessary for making a map myself, but I wouldn't mind tossing a few ideas back and forth about the races and such. I spend most of my World Editing time writing up GUI spells that never find their way into any map or project, so I guess that it would be a more productive use of my time. Let me know.
|05-28-2008, 07:37 AM||#18|
Join Date: Jul 2004
|05-28-2008, 10:17 AM||#19|
Absolutely. (Woot. More allstar posters!). Let’s see what I can dredge up from memory…__________________
S – Imperial Enforcer: Crazy-strong hero; was originally based on “victory, no matter the sacrifice” with abilities that dealt damage to his own army for benefits… But now he’s up in the air.
I – Matriarch (of the Tides?): The caster hero extraordinaire. Lich-like, almost. She would be the remake of the Sea Witch; with a higher emphasis on storm/water spells than just ranger/cold arrows stuff.
A – Contaminator: Idea from Moyack; similar to his Venom Lord/Warrior (the difference being, I already have a poison-based Troll Jungle Dartmon and a disease-based Forsaken Dark Apothecary). So coming up with stuff for him that is both original, useful, and… cool, is hard.
I – “War Queen // Daughter of Azshara”: This is an interesting concept; borrowed from the Ominous Horizons group, with their Ardent hero. It’s like a “warrior priestess”, which is able to attack (but not as long/well as the Imperial Enforcer) and also cast devastating spells (but not as powerfully/well as the Matriarch). She would have a mix of storm/water-based spells, and “combat” spells.
[Mur’gul] Slave: simple builder. Just like in the campaigns.
[Mur’gul] “Reaver”: simple “Footman” unit; will probably have some kind of “Enrage” ability to get bonuses at low health. May have the ability to ‘upgrade’ into an “Overseer” unit that has beneficial auras for friendly Mur’gul Slaves. Probably weaker than in campaign (bcz. there they were really strong)
[Mur’gul] “Huntsman”: simple “Rifleman” units, ranged version of the “Reaver”. Throws nets/bolas to catch and damage enemies. Has a Chance-On-Attack (CoA) ability with a X% chance to throw a net and Ensnare the target attacked enemy unit for a duration.
Coral Crusher: This is an original idea from me; an “anti-unit” mech. The lore is that the Mur’guls have to have some form of crude constructions; so the Naga have recruited both soldiers and mechs (so that way, the Naga get a mechanical unit!). It’s like a giant sea urchin, made of (rings of) coral, constantly spinning on a wheeled chassis.
Anyway, it has no attack, but it has high priority (so enemies attack it more than others), and likes to orient itself at the front of the army. It has high armor and stuff, and has modified Permanent Immolation abilities (w/ blood effects, not fire) that act like spinning spikes. Something like that.
Siren: Same as campaign, except no Frost Armor or Cyclone; instead it has Parasite (normal), “Sirens Call/Song” (possible spell, = a channeling temporary Mind Control), and “Tempest” (from Ominous Horizons; the first caster “creates” the storm, lvl1, then each additional caster (up to 12 max) channels on the existing storm to boost it’s power; eventually it’s this freakin’ huge mega-storm with tornadoes, lightning bolts, chain lightning, wind, rain, etc etc etc. (should work…)
“Tide Caller”: This is a secondary caster…actually, I can’t remember her spells. Criminy. But I believe she was an analogy to the “War Queen”, with more emphasis on “deep sea” and “cold” spells. ???
Couatl: same as campaign, minus “Abolish Magic”; also weaker (so as not to copy Gargoyle). Ability ideas?
Myrmidon: same as campaign, except abilities: would have Gore and Charge. Gore would be a passive CoA that gives a X% chance to rip into an enemy unit with the trident, crippling them (literally = Cripple). Has a cooldown. Charge would be somewhat like a Wind Walk w/o the “turning invisible”; they would get a speed boost instead, and the first thing they hit takes extra damage (and gets “Gored” if the cooldown is up).
“Wardancer”: This is like a specialized Myrmidon. This guy is a lot more about finesse than raw power; so he attacks faster. Surprisingly enough, he’s the anti-caster of this race; his abilities help him get back there and rip apart enemy casters. He has “Shadow Dance”, which causes him to warp around a target unit that he’s attacking (randomly), “Ceremonial Blades” and “Enchanted Blades” (which give him Cleaving Attack and drain the mana of the attacked unit, respectively)
Dragon Turtle: Same as campaign, minus “Hardened Skin” and “Devour”. Perhaps a new ability called “Brute Force” (?) that allows it to pick up a tower (the Tidal Guardian) and carry it around on it’s back, turning it into a semi-building w/ automated secondary Tower Attack!
Snap Dragon: Same as campaign, minus “Slow Poison”. Ideas?
Leviathan: This is the big brute; the stereotypical “T3 dragon-thing” for this race. In this case, it’s basically just like Moyack’s “Sea Drake” (I think that’s the name…), which is like an underwater dragon, with 2 sets of wings and no arms/legs. Except a better mesh/skin for the head (no offense :P). This would have 2 abilities; one would be to land (immobile), and the other (only while landed?) would be “Flood”, which would spew high-pressure seawater into a target area, damaging enemies slightly and leaving a big (slippery, miss chance?) puddle at the target area.
The idea is that he’s a fast, anti-air (only) attack dragon; but he can mobilize to enemy positions and swoop down onto the ground, changing his attack to a high-pressure stream of water (rapid-fire: Water Elemental missile model w/ 0.10 attack speed and low damage), along with “Flood” to mess them up further.
More to come on my thoughts behind it… Just thought I’d get something out.
Last edited by Kyrbi0 : 06-27-2008 at 05:02 PM.
|05-28-2008, 08:11 PM||#21|
Join Date: May 2008
You've got some really, REALLY interesting units there. I'd love to see the Dragon Turtle (hm, could give a new tactic... mobile turtling !) and the Leviathan. The Coral Crusher could be usefull in an army, works like a Target Dummy of sorts?
|05-29-2008, 01:24 AM||#22|
*Leviathan* - When you say "see", you do mean hypothetically, right? Because I don't really have a model or skin or anything; I was just gonna use a sea-green-tinted Green Dragon model.__________________
*@Druidinator* - Why thank you. I pride myself on stealing all the best ideas from other mods trying to come up with reasonable, useful units for the races.
|05-29-2008, 06:22 AM||#23|
Ok, with the Naga, I followed several themes and several points of lore to build the techtree and racial uniqueness. Unfortunately, I don’t remember all too much about Moyack’s Naga, so I’ll leave that to you guys to compare/contrast.__________________
First off, the Mur’guls have been minorly enslaved by the Naga to serve as laborers and cannon fodder; not as advanced troops. Thus, having a Mur’gul hero (or even a Mur’gul unit past late T2) doesn’t make sense, lore-wise.
Also, the sexual dimorphism is very obvious in the Naga race, as well as class demarcation. By that I mean, only girls can be the magic-users and priestess (read: casters), whereas all the men are the trained fighters and warriors (read: swordchucks, yo). So even though (as I originally thought), a female “Wardancer” would be schweet, it wouldn’t make sense; only the males train that way with the blades, and become warriors.
One could argue that not every race needs a mechanical unit, making the (IMO) overly-contrived “Coral Crusher” unneeded. One might further argue that the Night Elves (the race… ) Oh, never mind; the Night Elves have the Ballista/Glaive Thrower… I wonder what I was thinking about? I thought for sure that there was a race without a mechanical unit… Bah.
Anyway, one must further recognize that adding things like Sea Giants, Makrura, or Murlocs to a custom Naga race is ludicrous. Both Sea Giants and Makrura are the hated enemies of the Naga; just because they all live in the deep blue, doesn’t mean they’re all friends with each other. So, as awexome as it may sound, no big lobsters flinging spiky crustacean projectiles to destroy buildings at range. Also, Murlocs are creeps; Mur’guls (the enslaved ones) are a mutated form of Murlocs. But Murlocs themselves are safe (I believe that they are freshwater, no?)
Finally, I made the decision a while back to “not have anything overlapping with melee”. This means that the Sea Witch (which is a Tavern hero) should still be an option to Naga players; thus the Matriarch (of the Tides). She may be a remake, but you can still pick the Sea Witch, right? Also, most of the existing abilities on the units (Abolish Magic, Slow Poison, Frost Armor, Cyclone, Ensnare, ad infinitum) already exist on other races; so those all have to go (and be replaced).
Oh, and I could try and be “unique” with them and allow the Royal Guard as a sort of “super-unit”, but I just personally decided to mold these guys a little more to melee “standards”.
That’s all I can remember. Sorry if I slammed an existing part of your race, Moyack; I don’t really remember what the units are.
|05-29-2008, 10:49 PM||#25|
Huh? For what? Everything??__________________
And, well, because... I don't know, I'm not very good at this sort of thing. For the longest time, that kind of "association" has been discouraged for me, so it's hard to imagine having somebody work on stuff for me...
I guess my biggest problem with that is that I have no "hard-fast" intention of making this thing work out; it's more like a hobby, that I do in my spare time (and which is vulnerable to me just "getting bored" for weeks or months at a time). As such, unless it was going to be released to the public or something, I couldn't ask a modeler to make me a custom model or anything like that (i.e. skin, or icon, or anims...).
Of course, if you're offering your services, and you don't mind the above... What do you feel like making? :P
|05-29-2008, 11:36 PM||#27|
After your post, I did some research; my bad. You don't do models, but your skins are stellar.__________________
Still, the same question remains. Would they (whoever offers to help) still want to help if they learn that I have no intention of going far with this; or even the possibility of me just losing interest? If I was a modeler, I wouldn't.
Unless, of course, the model/skin/whatever could be put into the resources section; but often this kind of creation is rather specific and unique to the project, and thus less usable to others (IMO).
|05-30-2008, 04:56 AM||#28|
Now, for those who were requesting the current standing of the Forsaken, offbranch of the vile Scourge, I present what I can (NOTE: much of this is somewhat old, so take it with a grain of salt; I can offer explanations for anything unclear, however.):__________________
A - Wraith Strider (remake of Dark Ranger, = Sylvanus)
I/S - Nathrezim Exile (remake of Dreadlord, = Varimathras)
I - Dark Apothecary (weak caster hero with many potions and the Plague)
S - Blackguard (remake of Dark Knight, = Garithos)
[Dredge?] (worker-class ghost unit, can only build/summon buildings (resources gathered by buildings?))
Deathguard (skeletal/forsaken warrior, can Hide and Ambush enemies by pretending to be a corpse (???))
Wight (cavalry/caster, kinda like a Wc2 Death Knight; his role us up in the air)
Worgen (melee caster)
Dark Magus (evil mage. 'nuff said.)
Sepulchre (basically an "animated graveyard", an earth elemental made from a graveyard. = abomination + meat wagon. Mech)
Nightshade (light/medium flying unit w/ multi-attack ability; atks ground + air. Can morph into:)
--> Nightwing (heavy flying anti-air unit; only attacks air, but very well)
Ankhou (wraith of a time mage (?). good vs. buildings + mechs. Rusts away mechs/structures, and has a long-range "mortar team" attack)
Cold Wraith (inspired by beta wc3 ~ cold-based spirit of Northrend, freezes enemies hearts inside their bodies. Can summon big walls of ice to block enemies, and... stuff.)
Shadow Ascendant (T3 "ownage device"; can't be touched by anything but Magic attacks/spells. really really slow, but has an almost insta-kill attack (=Bane Wraith))
The units that I am relatively unsure about... Nathrezim Exile, Blackguard, Cold Wraith, Sepulchre (based on how they build), and Deathguard. And maybe Shadow Ascendant (although he'll be there in some form). Everything else will pretty much be as it is.
So anyway, back to my original question: Anybody got some Forsaken stuff that they think fits (with the lore) or fills a niche (like more air units, or an anti-caster, etc)?
Anyway, so with the Forsaken, that "t3 ownage device" is the Shadow Ascendant. He's based off of the Bane Wraith idea from D&D, as well as these "undead spirits" from this one book series (Sword of Truth). They were super-slow, but they were relentlessy chasing you, and if you even touched one, you died. (the Bane Wraith = same thing; if you touch it, you have to roll a dice (make a saving throw); if you fail, you die)
So yeah, a super-slow unit, but it can't be hit by anything (except magic + spells). Touch = insta-death (probably Chaos attack, or Hero attack/Hero armor)
Wight* - I have a unit called the Wight; right now, it's a "cavalry/caster", probably T1/2. No caster upgrades, but it has some actual castable spells.
Right now, it has "Raise Wight" (raise dead, + casting time, makes a Wight), "Ethereal Cloak" (mod. Elune's Grace), and probably something "Paralysis"-based (like an attack, pauses the target?).
But you raised a good point, giving him the "ward-based semi-permanent Scouting ability" (replacing the "Raise Wight" with "Raise Shade-scout-thing<u>y</u>") would make a lot of sense.
So... Yay or nay? On one hand, "Raise Wight" can boost your standing troops (but they have to be protected while casting), while "Raise Thingy" is a very nice, baseline Scouting ability (much-needed).
A – Dark Ranger (= dark ranger replacement, focuses on wraiths ~ because = Sylvanas). Spells:
- Wail of the Dirge: AoE target; deals high DoT & -AS to enemies in area.
- “Spirit Shot”: single-target DD; spawns an “attack wraith” at target point.
- “Wraithform”: [not sure], self-buff, transforms into a semi-ethereal “mega wraith archer” form.
U: “Haunt”: AoE target; mass possession :D
I/S - Nathrezim Exile (= dreadlord replacement, focuses on manipulating enemies 'n' stuff ~ because she has Varimathras as her lieutenant) . Spells:
- Dissent: single target; makes the target (enemy) Neutral Hostile temporarily
- Vampiric Bite: single target; melee bash + life drain. (bash keeps the unit from running away)
- [Forbidding]: AoE Target, creates an area of “unwalkable ground” (uber –MS)
U: Dark Summoning: same as item (AoE target; summons 12 units to caster)
I/A – Blackguard (= Garithos, “Dark Knight”, or “Bandit Lord”, to be decided. Has no focus yet (evil pally?) ~ because Sylvanas mind-controlled / coerced a Bandit Lord / Garithos) . Spells:
- Intimidate: melee-range AoE spell; makes enemies unable to attack.
- Waraxe: Charge!; autocast DD + debuffer that activates upon attack (once every X seconds, deals bonus damage to an enemy & -Armor)
- Crippling Fear: aura vs. Enemies (-HP regen, -MS)
U: Shadowbind: Passive Chance-on-attack to create an evil “shadow” version of a unit that’s being attacked (for you).
I – Dark Apothecary (= a forsaken chemist; focuses on potions and brews ~ because if there’s one thing the Forsaken are all over, it’s Chemistry) . Spells:
- “Corpse Potion”: AoE target, takes all the corpses in the area and makes a healing potion from them (heals in the area, based on # of corpses).
- “Dark Cloud”: AoE target (?), creates (instant cast?) a thick cloud of noxious potion fumes; disables ranged attacks and/or –MS and or –AS, etc.
- [?] (unsure, probably something to boost mana regen / replenish mana)
U: “Plague”: (unsure of targeting; AoE or single?) Basically some massive undead plague thing; plagued units can spread it to other units, and take damage constantly; (killed with plague = zombies??), etc.
1. Graven One
2. Deathguard ??
3. Plaguebearer ??
4. “Condemner/Arbitrator” ?
5. Wight ?
6. Dark Magus
7. Sepulchre ?
12. Shadow Ascendant
((All of the above are questionable; set, but also flexible and unsure. Mainly due to the roles they fill (t1 melee, t2 melee, t1.5 melee, etc etc). Some can be ranged or melee; caster or fighter, etc etc. So not sure. But also sure.))
Changed Hero Notes:
A – “Wraith Strider
- Wail of the Dirge
- “The Black Arrow” (?)
S/A/I? – Banshee Queen
- “Soul Leech”
- “Shadow Pulse”
- “Gravekeeper’s Cloak”
Hopefully this will spark some conversation...
|05-30-2008, 01:52 PM||#29|
Join Date: May 2008
Here, what a coincidense! Three of those abilities, Haunt, Shadowbind and Dissent, are exactly the same as tthree abilities im planning to give my guys in my project! In my version of your Haunt, Chains of the Mind, are the controlled units given back after a set time. And in Shadowbind (Crystal Copy for me, i'll change to name), its a targeted ability instead.
Last edited by The Druidinator : 05-30-2008 at 01:56 PM.
|05-30-2008, 03:55 PM||#30|
So how are you working "Chains of the Mind"? I only know how to make it permanent.__________________
Also, Dissent is unlikely to happen, unless I get good with local variables... Which I probably should. But right now, that hero is gone, so I'm not sure where to put it (if anywhere).
So... I don't know where to begin, really. There are several parts of those races that need thought or re-thinking... And I'd rather not post everything I have without some feedback first. So I guess I can start with an old post (and some background):
Grisly Message (T1 town hall)
->Lurid Warning (T2 town hall)
- ->Gruesome Testament (T3 town hall)
Training Log (barracks)
Voodoo Shrine (caster barracks)
Hunting Lodge (T2 creature barracks)
War Hall (T3 elite barracks)
Boar Hut (food-production figure)
Altar of Da Jungle (altar)
Sentry Post (tower): This tower has no attack, but can upgrade into either a Tiki Tower or a Jungle. However, it has the ability "Survey", which reveals everything within a large radius of the tower (to stop those BM rushes)
->Tiki Tower (offensive tower): This tower is a grim warning to all who enter Trollish-held lands; their ever-watching Tiki eyes shoot blue magic at all who dare enter. This thing shoots at enemies; simple as that. Pretty fast/weak, as opposed to slow/strong.
->Jungle (defensive tower): This tower doesn't attack, but serves several beneficial roles of defense; can release a Hive of Bees to defend itself, and creates Underbrush around it to slow enemy units, and provide cover for targeted friendly Troll units (by loading them up, a la Zeppelin).
Ritual Circle (racial shop): This is the Troll's racial shop. However, it also is a shop where the Troll's heroes can pwn (sell) off their collected Skulls and Jewelled Skulls for money. Racial Orb = ranged shadow attack, +6 agility
Whittler (lumber mill + blacksmith): This building both collects lumber and works on all the Troll upgrades (+Melee Attack, +Ranged Attack, +Infantry Armor, +Creature Armor) as well as (Troll Regeneration) and (Hardbark Plates: gives most Troll buildings steam-hardened plates of bark, which act like Night Elf Mountain Giant's "Hardened Skin" ability)
(This is from another site, so if I reference something that doesn't make sense, I can explain):
*Trolls* - Well, other than the existing changes (already told you about), I can only think of a very few things:
- Don’t like the Slasher’s (basic melee Troll warrior) name; dunno if I’ll ever be content with it.
- -> Oh, and ironic enough as it sounds, I’ve thought of a possible name/theme/lore change: “Pirates”. That’s right, I’d be changing it back to where I originally stole the idea from (OH), and even right back to what they had it as. However, I’d be going for more of “just a name” angle; he probably wouldn’t even have a pirate hat, or peg leg, or gun or anything. But the idea is that certain Troll mercenary/soldiers, with the ability to Hijack enemy towers/mechs, are nicknamed “Pirates” for their brazen thievery and general rowdiness. Meh, not sold, but it’d be a funny turn of events.
- Don’t like the Mojo Twister’s (anti-mage semi-spellcaster, mounted on black spider) name much either. In fact, I was almost having thoughts of removing him; but I realized that they needed an anti-caster unit. But wouldn’t a “Swamp Snake” that either caster could mount, be really cool? Or a magic-powered Tiki Mask (= anti-caster) that floats around and zaps enemies? (Curse me and my ideas!)
- Oh, and the Jungle has Load / Unload / Cargo Hold; 4 spaces to hide Troll units. Thought it might make the Jungle a bit more useful. Eh?
- And I was thinking; every race’s worker has some kind of ability (and often, it’s used for defense, either of the base or the worker itself)
Human Peasant --> Turn into Militia; can be used defensively or offensively; strengthens the workers
Orc Peon --> Battle Stations in Burrows; used defensively (both for base + worker!)
Night Elf Wisp --> Detonate + Harvesting; although Detonate kills the Wisp, it’s a nice AoE dispel/mana drain; plus, while Harvesting Lumber/Gold, they are either protected or hidden!
Undead Acolyte --> Sacrifice; this doesn’t actually protect him much. But it gets you another unit, and that’s a Scouting unit!
Groundling could get a “Dig Silo” ability that lets it dig a little hole-in-the-ground (ground, Groundling, etc) that can hold 1 unit (likely the Groundling itself) to hide in. BUT what if (duh), we just gave him the ability to Crawl, like all other Troll infantry units? Eh??
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