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Old 02-23-2010, 12:39 PM   #646
Michael Peppers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
Would it be possible to get a list either way? The tech-tree post on the front page (I realize you have no way to update it) has no information other than hero names and spell names. It would be nice to know what the units spells specifically are.

You never know, I might just have some mind blowing idea for Jungle Trolls :D.
Alright. The attached pdf has the information you need =)

Except for Mesmerize, that is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wc3shady
Maybe... Hypnotize: Forces an enemy unit to move towards the Viper Priestess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
In addition once your done with Jungle Trolls will be planning to move onto other races?
After some months of procrastination.... yup, probably.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:55 PM   #647
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Ugh. Why didn't I update the Mesmerize description after I C&Ped it in? >_<
Anyway, well done, Peppers!
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:53 PM   #648
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Looks really good, here are some of my suggestions,

Heroes
- Viper Priestess
- Aspect of Hethiss: The Viper Priestess allows the power of the Loa Hethiss to flow through her becoming an Avatar of Hethiss. She gains increased attack speed and regeneration. In addition her attacks apply a poison in a small aoe around the target and the target. This poison stacks, and becomes more deadly as it stacks.

I have some more but I got to go to a class now.

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Old 02-23-2010, 09:18 PM   #649
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So basically activating the ultimate should trigger an Engineering Upgrade just for Serpent Steel?
At the moment it looks like Kyrbi0 has it so that learning tooltips have (very little) "flavor text", while all "use/activate" tooltips are pure stats. Basically the way Blizzard has it (actually, even the tiny lore references are pushing it). I appreciate the effort to write a verbose tooltip, though.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:25 PM   #650
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No problem. I like adding detail but it is probably better to have cleaner tool tips. Do you plan to make the ultimate permanent or temporary like metamorph?
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:16 AM   #651
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It seems other than I really can't think of anything until I play the race myself. Excellent job! While you finish up the Jungle Trolls, I'll add some of my own notes about my favorite race in all of Warcraft.

The Nerubians.

Now like I said before I am a concept designer in the sense that I love to create. Not actual artwork but the background and workings of a specific work. In addition to this I work on a WoW Private server but that is a different story. Nerubians have always been my favorite race in the Warcraft series. Anub'arak just kicks ass, and the Crypt Lord hero was always my favorite. They have such an interesting and sad back story. I always felt sorry how they killed Anub'arak in WoW. Such a horrible way to use a great character with so much potential (seeing as Anub'arak hated Arthas). I always wished to create a Nerubian race and have studied their background lore to the fullest.

Now what I am about to say will probably repetitious in your eyes but bare with me. In Warcraft their are 4 (with your Jungle Trolls 5) races. Each of the races have 12 units and 4 heroes. Each race has unique units that differ from other races to give flavor to them. Each race has strategies that are unique to that race and also has different play styles. Just as much as the units the Buildings also come into play. The buildings of every race differ greatly and give special advantages to each race. In order to make a successful race in my honest opinion is to have these key above key values. Unique play style buildings and units that are not seen in the 4 current races.

In Nerubian lore we notice a few things that tell us how they wage war. Most of our information comes from the story of the War of the Spider, that tells how the Nerubians, unfortunately, fell to Ner'zhul. The way the Nerubians fought the war is the most interesting bit. Here are the key notes.

- They had a vast underground system thank to their subterranean empire.
- They were immune to both the undead plague and mind control, but were susceptible to necromancy like other races.
- They employed vigorous hit and run tactics due to their ability to emerge almost anywhere in Northrend through their tunnels and quickly retreat.
- They were excellent architects and, as seen in the campaign, could make deadly and complex traps.

If Nerubian race was to created in any way that follows the lore, they would largely be a hit and run race that is very focused on maintaining a strong defense while utilizing tunnels to move through the map and back to their bases in short notice. With this in mind we can now have a unique way to style the main focus of both the Nerubian buildings, units and of course heroes.

Just like determining the Nerubian strategy, we must first look what the Nerubians actually are and how their social structure works. We see that among the Nerubians that little to no parts of their society can fly (There is one Nerubian Flyer in WoW but it serves almost no strategical purpose, . We also see that Nerubians are also in no way connected to flying animals. Don't despair however, the Nerubians have their methods.

The Nerubian race is broken into several castes. We see that the Nerubians are primarily held up by a worker force. The working force is highly trained and serve as foot soldiers wielding weapons. Like every other Nerubian they also come equipped with a poisonous bite. A few key notes about the worker.

- They are the main work force behind the Nerubians.
- They are disciplined and proficient with most weapons, preferring to keep distance with their enemies.
- Work well under a leader figure.
- Can fall back on a poisonous bite all Nerubians possess.
- Most interestingly of all, Workers who show specific prowess in specific areas may become either a Nerubian Warrior (basic melee), a Nerubian Seer ( basic spellcaster) or a Nerubian Webspinner (basic ranged).

This means we have our first unit! The Nerubian Worker will be the peons/peasants of the Nerubian Empire. Building structures as well as being defenders. Nerubian Workers can show skills in basic categories and can convert themselves to fill certain roles at an additional cost and time.

Now that that's settled lets cover the basic units mentioned above.

The Nerubian Warrior would function like most other races Warriors. They are the ones in the front lines taking hits and doling them out. According to the lore sometimes Nerubian Warriors are organized into small bands so somehow could be more effective in smaller scale fighting, once again encouraging hit and run tactics. Though this should not be over emphasized in one unit.

The Nerubian Seer is the basic spellcaster unit for the Nerubians. Before the Scourge ran-sacked Azjol-Nerub it is noted that the Nerubians had massive libraries devoted to magic and experimentation. The seers are counselors and mages primarily. It would seem likely that Seers would use beneficial and defensive magic as opposed to offensive. This unit could definitely warrant a heal or wards of some sort.

The Nerubian Webspinner does just what it names implies. Spin Webs. They would be a ground ranged unit much like the Crypt Fiends. Most likely coming with ensnare. In addition Webspinners who are upgraded could become more proficient with their webs, giving them additional uses like web traps or buffs.

Now that that those concepts are taken care of I'll bring a caste of Nerubians I'm personally not quite sure what to do with. The spiderlings, or baby Nerubians. Here is a quote that pretty much sums everything up for me.

Quote:
Nerubian spiderlings are young and voracious nerubians. While not nearly as intelligent as adult nerubians, spiderlings are still dangerous; in fact, when they gather in spiderling swarms (which they often do), they are more dangerous than nerubian workers. Adult nerubians carry their young around their lairs. Spiderling swarms are almost always attached to adults; up to around a dozen spiderlings cling to the adult’s body. Nerubians leave the spiderlings in their lair when they move to confront enemies, but foes who clash with nerubians in their tunnels may find themselves confronting a spiderling swarm. The only other way an adventurer can reasonably expect to run into a spiderling swarm is in a nerubian incubation chamber. Spiderlings follow the commands of other nerubians, particularly the adult to which they are attached. Once the Nerubians have destroyed or routed all opponents, the spiderlings feed. Nerubians are spiderlings for about 3 years. Over this time, they grow from the tiny spiderlings presented here, gradually attaining the size of small adult nerubians

Spiderlings are interesting for the fact that they can function in so many interesting ways. They can act as a swarming force very much like the Zergling in Starcraft. They can come attached as additional units to units like Nerubian Workers or Warriors. They could even, given time, morph into Nerubian Workers as well. Spiderlings provide many interesting possibilities, that actually might make Nerubians a bit too complex.

Now that the more basic and well known Nerubian castes have been explained it is time to talk about the more complex ones and theory craft some new ones based on information.

From what we see the Nerubians are a largely Egyptian based race. With this comes the practice of mummification. Suggested earlier in this thread was the concept of an Embalmer unit focused on the dead. This makes perfect sense and fits well with Nerubian theme. This unit would be the tier 2 spellcaster.

Seeing as we are on the subject of spellcasters now would be a good time to mention the third and final tier of the spellcasters. The Nerubian Viziers. They are most likely the most proficient Nerubian sorcerers. They are commonly seen using a shadow variety of magic but have extremely powerful support spells that boost an allies power greatly.

Another possibility for a unit is a builder unit specialized in building traps and structures fro the nerubians. Seeing as the Nerubians were highly adept at this kind of work it makes perfect sense.

Now that the Nerubians have been covered (the leader castes will be hero classes) it is time to bring up the animals the Nerubians associate themselves with.

First up is the Arachnathid race, which fits beautifully with the Nerubian theme. It is seen in the campaign that the Nerubians in fact use Arachanthids as outdoor guardians of Azjol-Nerub. Arachnathid's usually bury themselves underground and can attack much like trap-door spiders or scorpions. This species of beast adds to the nerubian theme of defense as well as ambush. They could function much like ant-lions and create dunes. They would be a strong unit.

Next is not so well known Ahn-keg race.

Quote:
These monstrous, ant-like creatures bear some distant resemblance to the Nerubian race. Ankhegs now monopolize the Nerubian wastes, building their cave-like homes beneath the ruins of the Nerubian cities. They prey on those foolish enough to travel to the Nerubian lands in search of lost treasure of ancient knowledge. These desert-loving creatures are extremely dangerous and have in the past been incorrectly identified by the uneducated as giant crypt fiends. These creatures have existed since the days of the Nerubian cities. Murals on the walls of those ancient cities imply that Ankhegs were once captured for gladiatorial matches.

These would most likely be the battering rams of the Nerubians. Huge creatures that could most likely tear through buildings. Maybe the possibility for a melee siege weapon?

The next beast and the most apparent yet deadly beast would be the iconic spider. Spiders can come in all types of varieties and their are many possibilities for spiders. There could be leaper spiders that could come with a short jump/blink spell allowing them to pass over terrain (much like the Stalkers in Starcraft 2). They can be ranged units that spit poison. But most importantly is this concept of spider.

Before I unveil the concept we must first look upon each of the other races units. One familiar trend is that all races have a specific building that generally produces one powerful unit that is usually air based and has a huge build time. Frost Wyrms for the Undead, Chimera for the Night Elves, Gryphons for the Humans , and Taurens for the Orcs. The proposed unit for the Nerubians however would be the Brood Mother. In various occasions (some in WoW for instance) we see that the Nerubians have giant spiders several times their size. The spiders would serve the Nerubians as their most powerful unit. They would specialize primarily in swarming and ground to air combat. Coming equipped with the passive ability to generate a swarm of small spiders and the ability to entangle large amounts of flying units with a single web. The Brood Mother is a powerful unit to deal with, and is almost all purpose. It is very expensive to maintain however.


That is it for the Nerubian Units, I hope you enjoyed this wall of text. I wrote this all in one sitting, so if their are mistakes I am sorry. I'll cover my suggestions for Heroes and Buildings in other posts.

Please take the time to read :D!

Last edited by Passthechips : 02-24-2010 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 07:26 AM   #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
(seeing as Anub'arak hated Arthas)
Wait...whaaa--?! So all that "my king" stuff was total hooey? Awww... and I bought it!

Also, since you may have overlooked the first post of this thread, may I direct your attention here? If (and that is an if) we (meaning I) decide to cover the Nerubian race, it will be based mostly on this techtree. Naturally, revisions can and will be made, but the Architect/Golem base management model is (IMHO) fantastic (your opinion may differ drastically, but if I may be blunt, it's going to take a lot of convincing on your part and/or ignorance on mine for me to do anything contrary to Kyrbi Writ).

While I am not averse to using information obtained from WoWWiki, my understanding is that a large portion of the information contained therein is bunk. Relying solely on its fanfiction-y flavor text is dangerous; assuming that its information is more reliable than wc3's is more so.

The Embalmer was not "suggested". It will be a "specialized Secondary T2 caster. Abilities = dealing with corpses; esp. embalming them to make them unusable to other races."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
First up is the Arachnathid race, which fits beautifully with the Nerubian theme. It is seen in the campaign that the Nerubians in fact use Arachanthids as outdoor guardians of Azjol-Nerub. Arachnathid's usually bury themselves underground and can attack much like trap-door spiders or scorpions. This species of beast adds to the nerubian theme of defense as well as ambush. They could function much like ant-lions and create dunes. They would be a strong unit.
Well, yes, there is room for a unit like that! I'm frankly amazed that you managed to avoid mentioning the Zerg Lurker, though.

You have a lot of ideas; these are good, but try to be patient - developing a custom race is a long and difficult process, and it is far from the only thing we (meaning all those involved with working on this project - currently Michael Peppers, RenegadeMushroom deolrin, Askhati, Alevice, and myself, so far) have to do each day. The trolls are nearly finished, but exactly how near has yet to be determined, and the projected time frame of early March for a "release candidate" (okay, it'll actually be released at that point - I ain't Dashus) is looking very optimistic. We're not likely to even start on the Nerubian race until several weeks after the Jungle Trolls are done. Again, since we're no Gizka, I'm willing to leave it alone once all the common/major bugs are covered, and continue to do minor tweaks as necessary. I'd love it if this race could be balanced, but that's not happening in the foreseeable future; balancing issues count as "tweaks". Shroom's suggestion that we skip the campaign will also speed things up drastically, of course.

Please forgive me if for my thoughts are disorganized and/or plainly rude. It has been a long day following a long week, and I am tired.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:08 PM   #653
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Ah you might have missed my point about the builder unit. Or maybe I didn't flesh that part out. I agree with most of Kyrbi's tech tree except for the flying units.

Also I am a patient person, I was just spittin ideas regardless of your desicion to work on them to promote discussion.

Also I personally view Wowwiki as an excellent source for wow lore. Almost all of the information has a source to prove its authenticity. Either way the Nerubian lore I used came from stuff written by blizzard (War of the Spider's my prime source was written by Metzen I believe, but don't quote me). The only lore that might be fabricated is the small bit about Ahnkegs.

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Old 02-24-2010, 05:28 PM   #654
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Well, you did make me go back and re-think my Nerubian race, which is good. It needed serious re-thinking, since I did almost no research on the matter. However, I had the thought of using moving burrowed units, instead of flyers. Then you also have units like the Zerg Lurker, which can attack when burrowed. Also, a web-spun gold mine could be used, thinking of a spider, which have tendencies to cover the places they live in webs.

On a completely unrelated note, it's crazy that Nerubians are my favourite race. I have serious arachnophobia and spiders scare the living daylights outta me. XP
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:17 AM   #655
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This is an aim to put order to my large wall of text. I have looked through all of the original Ominous Horizons forum archive concerning Nerubians as well as studied Kyrbi's and other posts. These units are in no way a representation a thought of anyone else's, but may be drawn from concepts other have used. These are not to be mistaken as something I believe should be added as a race, if you decide make the race, but merely speculation to promote discussion. I tried to follow Kyrbi's original tech-tree but deviated in some areas for personal reasons.

There are three changes I think I will get a lot of flak for.
- Nerubians will have nothing to do with egg-sacs, but are generally produced from an Incubation Chamber.
- Workers will be the primary builders for the Nerubians. Workers may be upgraded into 4 different units however.
- Nerubians will not have a flying variety of unit.

Reasons for this are,
- Egg sacs seem to complicated to implement with an already complicated race.
- Building builders to build golems off the get go seems to unwieldy in practice but good in concept.
- No lore basis for a flier unit and can add flavor to the race by lack there of.

These tables in no way show what building the unit is associated to. This is just a way of organizing the units


Base Nerubian Unit:
Nerubian Worker: Serves as a basic worker unit. Can harvest both lumber and gold, build buildings and repair them. Can upgrade themselves into either a Warrior, Seer, Webspinner or Architect for an additional cost.


Nerubian Non-magic Units:
Nerubian Warrior: Basic melee unit. Can be trained from the associated building immediately or upgraded from a Nerubian Worker for a larger gold cost.
Nerubian Webspinner: Basic ranged unit. Can learn an ensnare and create a web that locks a unit in a web (much like cyclone only shorter duration). Can be trained from the associated building immediately or upgraded from a Nerubian Worker for a larger gold cost.
Nerubian Primeguard: Advanced T2 melee unit comparable to the Scourge's Abomination. Can learn a Leader ability that promotes hit and run tactics.


Nerubian Spellcaster Units:
Nerubian Seer: Basic spellcaster unit. Can be upgraded to learn a dispel, and defensive magic. Can be trained from the associated building immediately or upgraded from a Nerubian Worker for a larger gold cost.
Nerubian Enbalmer: T2 Spellcaster. Has spells that involve corpses and rituals.
Nerubian Vizier: T2.5 Spellcaster. Has spells that curse as well as provide synergy with hit and run tactics.


Nerubian Beasts:
Ahnkeg: Basic melee siege unit. Can be upgraded to gain a trample effect.
Arachnathid: Advanced Melee unit. Can be upgraded to learn a burrowed poison strike move. Can also upgrade to learn a Sand Pit move that causes an area around the Arachnathid to slow enemy units. The Sand Pit dissolves if the Arachnathid leaves it.
Vault Spider: A light melee unit with a fast movement speed and decent damage range. Can be upgraded to learn blink/junp movement, enabling them to catch up to units, and or blink over terrain.
Brood Mother: Slow Defensive T3 unit. The Brood Mother is a giant ranged spider that is ideal for base support. Can spawn smaller spiders, ensnare air units in an aoe, and spawn incredibly thick web, protecting a building from harm

Nerubian Architect:
Nerubian Architect: Upgraded only from the Nerubian Worker unit. The Nerubian Architect comes with the ability to build a variety of different structures. These range into several golems, a tunnel system and a special one of a kind tower. Nerubian Architects are an expensive build.
Worker Golem: The Nerubian Architect constructs this golem like a building. After completion the Golem is fully functional like a unit. It can harvest a much larger quantity of materials in the same time a Nerubian Worker can. There is a limit to the available Worker Golems(3?).
Defender Golem: The Nerubian Architect constructs this golem like a building. After completion the Golem is fully functional like a unit. This golem has a large vision range but is slow moving. Acts a melee tower with an aoe attack. Great for smashing swarming weak units


These are my units so far. I might add or remove certain aspects of units or even units themselves, depending on what I think of.

A lot of information like passive upgrades that most units receive is missing as I haven't quite decided what to use. Assume that most units can burrow. Also Nerubians might get a poison bite. Like I said I am not sure, this will probably come later in the building section.
Once again I tried in my opinion to follow what Kyrbi had laid out for the Nerubian race. The Nerubian Architect I have proposed is in no way complete and in no way are the golems as well. I do believe the Architect should be a highly coveted unit and also where the tunneling ability of the Nerubians should be placed. I don't believe in the golems being the main workforce of the Nerubians however, just additions to it.

Kyrbi's original Brood Mother will be meshed into the Nerubian Queen hero. As a whole I think Kyrbi's flying units were poorly planned, and I actually believe he wasn't to sure of them either. His Bombadier siege unit was actually a unit planned in Ominous Horizons as well and I think not by him.


Opinions?

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:03 AM   #656
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No opinions makes me a sad panda.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:28 AM   #657
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Sorry; been sleeping most of the day (partly to catch up on sleep, partly because I seem to have a mild flu). Opinionated edit on its way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
This is an aim to put order to my large wall of text. I have looked through all of the original Ominous Horizons forum archive concerning Nerubians as well as studied Kyrbi's and other posts. These units are in no way a representation a thought of anyone else's, but may be drawn from concepts other have used. These are not to be mistaken as something I believe should be added as a race, if you decide make the race, but merely speculation to promote discussion. I tried to follow Kyrbi's original tech-tree but deviated in some areas for personal reasons.
Okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
There are three changes I think I will get a lot of flak for.
- Nerubians will have nothing to do with egg-sacs, but are generally produced from an Incubation Chamber.
- Egg sacs seem to complicated to implement with an already complicated race.
Implementation-wise, I think they'd be pretty uncomplicated. They might be complicated in gameplay, though. What I think you seem to mean by "Incubation Chamber" appears similar enough in design and balance that the two are probably interchangeable; if that is the case (and despite what my addled brain thinks it may not be), I think I'd personally implement and test both methods, and go with the most user-friendly approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
- Workers will be the primary builders for the Nerubians. Workers may be upgraded into 4 different units however.
- Building builders to build golems off the get go seems to unwieldy in practice but good in concept.
Like egg sacs vs. incubation, I have no strong opinion one way or another yet. However, this change does have a much greater impact on gameplay - it'd be unfeasible to try to test both with the same race. In terms of implementation, workers-building-golems is far easier than workers with morph abilities - at least if it's done right. Although Destroyer Form certainly seems like the way to go, it doesn't show a progress bar the way Zerg morphs do; the morphing cocoon would need to be implemented as a building with several triggers around it to prescribe the correct sequence, which severely tests my tolerance for messiness (not your fault - almost every cool idea requires some sort of crazy work-around, but this is pretty much as far as I'm willing to go. I'm unreasonably stubborn about avoiding damage detection as well).
In actual gameplay, though (and the customer is most important), you're probably right: workers building specialized workers might confuse the player too much. Devil's advocate: if the workers build workers, players will cope. Each race has its own style that sets it apart from others (or at least tries to. *Glares at Orcs*). Having to deal with a different style of base management might be jarring at first, but once that gameplay element is learned, it'll be as natural as having a dedicated lumber harvester for Undead, or walking buildings for Night Elves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
- Nerubians will not have a flying variety of unit.
- No lore basis for a flier unit and can add flavor to the race by lack there of.
This I'm going to basically just agree with. While I'm still concerned that the lack of flier units will throw off balance significantly (hippogryphs, gargoyles, and dragonhawks become nearly useless, and enemy air-to-ground will likely be wrecked by webs and such, leaving the Nerubians with far more mobility and map control than any competing race), the Orcs currently have a similar setup and are not ridiculously imbalanced (the only thing people really complain about is the Blademaster). Further, I've grown rather fond of Dawn of War (which I only recently acquired), and the Eldar and Imperial Guard have great mobility yet are not automatically the most powerful race. Of course, DoW lacks "air units", but...anyway.

Worker upgrades: Really? Larger gold cost? Theoretically that seems wrong somehow (Night Elves have cheaper workers because they become most of the buildings, and the buildings are cheaper because the player already paid for the worker), but I guess that's not really relevant at all until we get down to number-balancing (design balance is important, too, of course, since it's possible for something to be qualitatively imbalanced, but this really is just a number).

Guerrilla Warfare: You brought this up so much I thought I'd mention it separately. It certainly suits the Nerubians, but it also describes the Jungle Trolls, and I'm (understandably, I hope) cautious of making the two races play at all like each other. I think we're safe as long as the Nerubians differ significantly in the way they "hit". The Jungle Trolls generally (depending on which units and heroes you choose to favor) do well at setting up an ambush with a terrain advantage, strafing large armies and massacring smaller ones to weaken the enemy until they have the upper hand. They probably wouldn't do so well in an all-out base assault, though there are certainly tech paths available that might be effective in that area. Unfortunately I just can't see the Nerubians doing any of that differently. Burrow and Crawl even operate similarly. Thoughts?

Spellcasters: All casters are traditionally T2 and up, so I'll assume the Seer is also intended as a second-tier unit. Other than that, all I'm seeing is "casts spells and stuff that fit a prescribed theme". So, okay.

Burrow: I can't really complain about giving it to most units, since a lot of Jungle Troll units have Crawl... Although,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
So like, for me, I'd say "No Ensnare", but I think I'd like to get "Burrow" in there somewhere. We just have to decide whether it's too much like the Trolls and Crawling to make it available for most Nerubian units.

Brood Mother: YEAHHHHHHH MOTHERSHIP. Max-tier high-cost ownasaurus rex that specializes in eating face. Possibly the "Royal Guard" of this race, but I'm sure it's balanceable somehow. As for the "old" one... I really think it's well-represented in this one. I mean, since you're shooting down "egg sacs" and there's no way a hero is going to have a "transmogrify into town hall" ability (maybe a "build one cheaper or faster" ability), what's left is "summons stuff and protects the base a la Zerg Queen" - a role this unit clearly fits.

Architect: Y'know, even before I read down to here I was thinking of something like this as a compromise. Especially since things like Nydus Canals and exclusive Goblin Shredders that don't require a lot of dragon-slaying really ought to be kept as an "advanced builder" kind of thing. And it's hard to imagine a golem digging a tunnel. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthechips
As a whole I think Kyrbi's flying units were poorly planned, and I actually believe he wasn't to sure of them either. His Bombadier siege unit was actually a unit planned in Ominous Horizons as well and I think not by him.
I'm going to take "poorly planned" as blunt critique and not an intended insult. Since we've both read (almost?) this entire thread, we both know how many times Kyrbi0 changed his mind on nearly everything for a vast range of reasons, so although I'll need to be persuaded before deviating drastically from The Plan, I'm not immobile. As previously mentioned, mobile ground units instead of flying units is fine provided it's possible to balance such a thing - and I currently believe it is.

As for the Bombardier, the fact that it comes from OH changes nothing (Kyrbi0 was an OH fanatic, and for all he'd defend it, it might as well have been his own idea). However, the existence of the "bomb-bat-ier" unit in the Jungle Troll race (and Kyrbi0's inexplicable insistence on calling it that) brings me to an Executive Decision: we don't need another one of those. tl;dr: I'm fine with scrapping it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:17 AM   #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicat
Sorry; been sleeping most of the day (partly to catch up on sleep, partly because I seem to have a mild flu). Opinionated edit on its way.


lol me too >.<, I'm just start to get better though, so good luck to you. Can't wait.

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Old 02-26-2010, 02:52 AM   #659
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COUGH*
Quote:
However, I had the thought of using moving burrowed units, instead of flyers. Then you also have units like the Zerg Lurker, which can attack when burrowed.
*COUGH
Yeah, just ignore me, why don't you?
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:03 AM   #660
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Not much progress on Jungle Trolls lately, by the way. We were going to run some multiplayer tests last night, but had difficulty establishing a stable connection. I'm also still working out all the kinks in the whole custom MPQ thing, and I've barely made a dent in the object rawcodes (changing them to be compatible with other mods). Plus there's the thing about being nearly catatonic most of the day...

Edit: That's odd - I just noticed this was post number 660 and your last post was number 658...

[/elaborate joke]

I kid, I kid. Though I'm concerned about the logic of "these units can move while burrowed, but can't attack, while these units can attack while burrowed, but can't move" and concerned about the balance of allowing Lurkers to have regeneration, pathingless movement, and an attack all while burrowed (exaggerating a bit). Plus,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
So like, for me, I'd say "No Ensnare", but I think I'd like to get "Burrow" in there somewhere. We just have to decide whether it's too much like the Trolls and Crawling to make it available for most Nerubian units.
I think an ability of this nature would be exclusive to one or two units, and we'd have to decide what burrowing can or can't do for them.

Still, I like the concept.
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Last edited by cosmicat : 02-26-2010 at 03:09 AM.
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