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Old 12-07-2011, 05:02 AM   #16
cohadar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade987
How do you feel about heroes created primarily in GUI?
Like kicking you in the face?

You have been here longer than me and you still don't know vJass.
There is no excuse for that, it is extremely simple to learn.

I learned karawasa to do jass in less than 2 days.
(we were actively coding together with chat constantly on, I think it was MSN at that time...)

I use google talk now, my email is cohadar AT gmail DOT com (obviously....)
So if you want to learn the jass you know where to find me.

The best part is that I teach only a subset of jass that makes sense and is useful which is about 20% of all the crazy shit Vexorian made.
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:46 AM   #17
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Hah! Yeah, I am aware its a bit sad.
The main issue is that I'm on a mac, which makes learning vJass a problem and makes learning standard Jass a bit frustrating.

I might actually take you up on that, though, if I can get Wine up and running in the next few days.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade987
Hah! Yeah, I am aware its a bit sad.
The main issue is that I'm on a mac, which makes learning vJass a problem and makes learning standard Jass a bit frustrating.

I might actually take you up on that, though, if I can get Wine up and running in the next few days.
The bad news is that wine can't run JNGP because it use code injection at run time.

I'd suggest to use vmware and install a winxp, with the game and JNGP emulated.

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Old 12-07-2011, 02:05 PM   #19
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I am not opposed to continuing my work on the hero, but don't expect me to not defend my work and challenge your opinions. Contrary to what you may think, I didn't give you a hero that I myself thought was bad. I think I did a good job, considering:
  • Your precedents: On average, the existing heroes in the map have less than two and a half triggered abilities. You explicitly stated, more than once, that you wanted to keep things simple and that there was nothing wrong with using default abilities. Taking this into consideration, I was surprised to find all your alternatives to my spells being trigger enhanced and to encounter statements like "I don't mind it being a default spell but...".
  • Your limitations: The libraries currently present in the map may be good for you, but for me this is a terrible development environment. There are some things I just can't do and others that are way too much work to be worth it. Just compare the two versions of Slaying Zeal in the trigger editor to see what I mean. A map truly in the spirit of open source would allow me to import libraries as needed, not lock me in with in-house solutions.
I will attempt to refute your specific criticisms once I find the time.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moyack
The bad news is that wine can't run JNGP because it use code injection at run time.

I'd suggest to use vmware and install a winxp, with the game and JNGP emulated.
Okay. I might give this a shot when I get home for the semester.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
I am not opposed to continuing my work on the hero, but don't expect me to not defend my work and challenge your opinions.

More than excellent, that will ensure we do things properly this time.
You have no need to refute my previous criticism, lets just start all over, and you certainly don't have to use the ideas I specified.

The only thing I will insist is that ALL spells on hero must be connected to that hero's lore.
Note that all spells on paladin are from paladin lore,
that all spells on frost archer are frost spells.
that all spells on water mage are water spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
Just compare the two versions of Slaying Zeal in the trigger editor to see what I mean.
I am fully aware of power of ABuff system, but the thing is spells like Slaying Zeal are just the kind of spell I don't want, A spells that is more complicated to write than it is worth in game.
4vsUndead is a simple minded game, less math and more special effects.
Just because some spell is triggered does not mean that the trigger needs to be complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
A map truly in the spirit of open source would allow me to import libraries as needed, not lock me in with in-house solutions.
.
The limitations exist for a reason, to force people to think of simple solutions.
I even try to limit myself, notice that PUI trigger is included in the map but that it is disabled. I hope no one will really need unit indexing, or damage detection or buff system or any other stuff like that.

My estimate is that systems currently in the game are sufficient, and considering how much stuff is already done with them I don't see any limiting factors.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:19 PM   #22
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Hmm... quite an interesting map. Simple, yet effective. Those are the kinds of maps that I like. Something is missing... Or maybe that's just how hero survivals need to play. You already have a water hero (aw) and an ice hero (aw), so... Hmm... I'll try to think of a hero.
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Old 12-09-2011, 06:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ignitedstar
Something is missing...
You are probably missing permanent items.
There are not going to be any so just forget about it.

Was thinking of adding some runes and/or magic shrines thou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitedstar
You already have a water hero (aw) and an ice hero (aw), so... Hmm... I'll try to think of a hero.
Fire hero, Earth Hero, Wind Hero, Bear Hero, Wolf Hero ....
If you lack ideas just pick a random wc3 unit and start thinking about its natural lore.
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohadar
You have no need to refute my previous criticism, lets just start all over,
Lets not. You can't just pretend I didn't already make a hero for you. I did, you didn't like it, you gave your reasons why, I thought they were bullshit and I intend to argue why.

Quote:
Passive Ability: vampiric
There is no icon! Could not bothered to create a dummy icon here?

Better Passive Ability: Blood Shield (you have a strength hero with a shield and did not make a shield spell?)
Blocks a negative spell that an enemy casts on a hero for the price of some hp.
Spell shield + reduce some hp + nice blood animation instead of default spell shield animation
I don't see how an ability that's maybe useful against bosses is a better innate than one that works all the time. It's also simple and straightforward, as innate abilities should be. It fits the hero's theme too; the only other innate I can think of that'd meet these criteria as well as life steal would be damage return.

Quote:
First Spell: Battle Frenzy
Why helm icon when it has sword attachment?
I don't mind it being a default spell but this could have been so much better

Better First Spell: Blood Blade
(name goes well with your attachment no?)
Hero gains bonus damage and vampiric attack.
But blood Blade requires combat, you lose hp if you are not fighting.
This can be done with vampiric potion ability + your sword attachment + passive negative hp regen
Why does the original berserk show a troll's face when it has spear attachment? Why does unholy frenzy show a skeletal eye when it has an overhead attachment? I could go on, but I think you get my point: icon art and spell art need not be one and the same.

A berserk-based ability fits the hero's theme perfectly. Sure, you can come up with a "better" idea if you include triggers, but the same argument could be used for every non-triggered ability you have used so far. If you're trying to keep things simple, I don't understand why you'd want to replace a perfectly suitable default ability with a triggered one.

Quote:
Second Spell: Power Blast
This is not connected to blood lore. Where are blood animations?

Better Second Spell: Blood Bath
Hero uses percent of his blood to damage enemies around him.
Hero loses hp and enemies around him get damaged for that hp + some nice blood effects
I haven't seen any blood animations on any of the Blood Elves in the game, so I'm not sure what lore you are referring to. But sure, this is the weakest ability in the lineup and I agree it could be improved.

Quote:
Third Spell: Slaying Zeal
Ok this has really nothing to do with blood lore, a mana spell on a str blood hero?
Using cleave icon with this???

Better Third Spell: Blood Frenzy
Hero attack faster and gains cleave attack but takes more damage.
Frenzy + added cleave bonus
(you don't even need to hide passive cleave icon, there is enough place in UI)
You've been complaining about icons elsewhere and I think here is a good place to respond to your icon issues. Your problem is that you are thinking of it as the "cleave icon". It's not. It's an icon with a mean looking blade surrounded by a mean looking aura. If you think in abstract enough terms it fits the ability just fine, but more importantly it fits in with the icons used by other abilities on the hero. I always go for colour cohesion in my icon choices, it's part of my style of hero design. I suppose you could swap the icons of Battle Frenzy and Slaying Zeal and they might fit somewhat better, it doesn't really matter, players will learn to associate an icon with the skill either way.

Why shouldn't a strength hero have a mana regeneration ability? Especially one that revolves around killing stuff? Seems like a perfect ability for a hero that's good at killing stuff. Due to wide availability of mana potions I can see how such an ability might be useless in this specific map, but otherwise there's nothing wrong if strength heroes are able to support casters in other ways than just tanking damage. Furthermore, having three attack damage increasing or direct damage dealing spells on a single hero just seems boring. Sure, having a spell that boosts attack speed and another spell that boosts damage is great synergy and all but it's just so uninspired.

Also, not hiding the cleave icon is downright sloppy. I'm surprised you would allow that considering how fastidious you are about everything else.

Quote:
Ultimate Spell: Retribution
Using single cast spell for ultimate? Why is this not some form of avatar spell?
Again no blood animations?

Better Ultimate Spell: Blood Vengeance
Same as Retribution only has over-time effect.
Deals missing hp/10 extra damage during 30 seconds.
Some red hand attachments maybe.
In my experience playing this map, you would typically save the ultimate for the boss fight since that's the most difficult part of each level. In light of this, I don't see why an ultimate would have to last long, why it couldn't just be an instant effect.

Also, you keep saying how you want to keep things simple and not use big systems, but I don't see how you can make the spell as it is described here without using BonusMod.


I suppose I got the wrong impression about this map. It isn't really an open source map. You want to have the same degree of control as if you were making the map on your own, dictating everything from libraries to hero designs, while expecting others to do the work for you. Things aren't going to work that way.
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
If you're trying to keep things simple, I don't understand why you'd want to replace a perfectly suitable default ability with a triggered one.
Triggers can also be simple, if 5 lines of triggering enhances a spell in a very good way there is no reason not to do it.
What I oppose is using 200 lines of code and/or 3000 line system just to create one spell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
Your problem is that you are thinking of it as the "cleave icon". It's not. It's an icon with a mean looking blade surrounded by a mean looking aura.
No, it IS a cleave icon because EVERY bnet player knows it AS a cleave icon.
One of the basic principles of this game is to keep it simple, and that means not messing with associations people already have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
In my experience playing this map, you would typically save the ultimate for the boss fight since that's the most difficult part of each level. In light of this, I don't see why an ultimate would have to last long, why it couldn't just be an instant effect.
Because instant ultimate is useless agains creeps. Remember that cooldown refresh tome?
Because instant ultimate has to take 50% life from boss to be effective and that one-click play simply is not fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
Also, you keep saying how you want to keep things simple and not use big systems, but I don't see how you can make the spell as it is described here without using BonusMod.
BonusMod is not a big system, in fact I plan on inserting it into next game version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
I suppose I got the wrong impression about this map. It isn't really an open source map.
You want to have the same degree of control as if you were making the map on your own,
dictating everything from libraries to hero designs, while expecting others to do the work for you.
Things aren't going to work that way.

Open-source map is any map that has open source. That's it.
In order for any collaborative effort to be productive someone needs to "be the boss".
Rules need to exist so people can keep their focus.
If I let everybody inserting just any library they want it would turn into disaster.
I am definitely not trying to dictate hero designs, but I do expect some standards to be kept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
You can't just pretend I didn't already make a hero for you. I did, you didn't like it..

No I really did not like it. And it does not play well in the game (try it).
And you cannot pretend that this is the best hero work you ever done, because you know it is not.
Just because map is open-source does not mean you can be sloppy about your work.

Please either anounce you quit or submit a new hero desing for community review.
I will probably chew you over it, but any decision I make can be overriden by 3 community votes.
If you can't find two more people to back up some idea than it is not a good one.

And if you do submit new ideas and create a new hero I expect it to be a of top quality because I know you can do it.

AND PLEASE REMEMBER THIS ALREADY:
I don't want anyone to make a hero for me, people should make heroes for themselves.

I am quite capable of making everything and anything I want, I created those 3 starting heroes in just one day.
The last thing I need is for others to do my work, I could just make everything myself and not bother with other people.
What I am traying to do is beyond that.

I am trying very hard to engage the whole community in this, so we can make something together.
Since noone has done this before I don't have a role model for how to do it and I make mistakes, once again sorry.
But because of those mistakes rules are now updated, so it was not a complete loss.
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #26
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I'm gonna voice two opinions here cohadar, working towards the overriding you thingy:

1. Spell Icons need not represent the Spell Special Effects
2. Spell Icons are abstract; using Cleave as something that isn't Cleave is actually a GOOD thing. If all icons kept their original functionality we'd just be playing ladder heroes with different stats.

I'll also say with less conviction: I think Anitarf's hero fits in realllly well with the other ones. It has exactly the same style and I don't know how ani was able to accomplish that.
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:08 PM   #27
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Default I dunno why you already used Avatar...

Now, onto hero design. This is how I might go about designing a hero (I've still kept it as simple as possible). Skill Format is "Skill X: Name [Icon] Description"

Hero: Angry Dwarf
Model: Mountain King
  • Skill Innate: Smite [Storm Hammer Research] The next attack strikes the target and enemies behind it with electric fury! dealing +X damage.
  • Skill One: Storm Bolt [Storm Bolt] Tosses a large hammer projectile that deals X damage to the first unit it collides with, knocking it back considerably.
  • Skill Two: Hammerfall [Thunderclap] The Angry Dwarf leaps to the target AoE, dealing X damage to any enemies and knocking them away.
  • Skill Three: Bash [Bash] The Angry Dwarf has an X% chance to stun enemies with his attack.
  • Skill ULTIMATE: Brewzer [Drunken Haze] The Angry Dwarf drinks a pint or six, gaining +X health regeneration and +Y damage for Z seconds.
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Old 12-10-2011, 06:25 PM   #28
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Skill Innate: Smite
- enemies behind first target? how many?
- a line or cone effect?
- why hit enemies behind at all?
- This should be a standard spell, not an innate.

Skill One: Storm Bolt
- "first unit it collides with" does this include allies? why use collision detection at all?
Collision detection is exactly the unnecessary complication I try to avoid, it has no purpose in this game.
A default wc3 storm bolt + triggered knockback effect would be 10 times more easier to implement and the fun would be the same.

Skill Two: Hammerfall
- Just damage effect? No slow or haze?
- With what does the dwarf toss enemies away?
- How do you plan to implement this spell? Dummy casted thunderclap + triggered knockbacks?
- Have in mind that you cannot use GetLocationZ() function for jump.
I have no intention of worrying about desyncs and needing to create custom warstomp, custom shockwave, custom....

Skill Three: Bash
- This is a clear no. All 4 spells must be active! Only Innate can be pasive.
Having a passive spell reduces number of possible player actions.

Skill ULTIMATE: Brewzer
- anyone who has watched drunken master with jackie chan knows that drinking does not increase hp regen but gives evasion :)
A better alternative would be to make this an ultimate that adds Drunken Brawler ability to a hero. (evasion + crit)

What is the lore/theme of this hero?
Angry? It has no rage spells.
Hammer? Hammer & Drinking?
I think you need one more drinking related spell to make it into theme.
Skill Three could probably be default wc3 Drunken Haze.
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohadar
Skill Innate: Smite
- enemies behind first target? how many?
- a line or cone effect?
- why hit enemies behind at all?
- This should be a standard spell, not an innate.
However many are in the area. Cone. Because it's like cleave. Okay.

Quote:
Skill One: Storm Bolt
- "first unit it collides with" does this include allies? why use collision detection at all?
Collision detection is exactly the unnecessary complication I try to avoid, it has no purpose in this game.
A default wc3 storm bolt + triggered knockback effect would be 10 times more easier to implement and the fun would be the same.
First enemy it collides with. And because it means you can miss; I've always considered skill requirements to be a componente importante to fun. But sure, basic stormbolt ftw. Now that I think about it that fits in way better with the map.

Quote:
Skill Two: Hammerfall
- Just damage effect? No slow or haze?
- With what does the dwarf toss enemies away?
- How do you plan to implement this spell? Dummy casted thunderclap + triggered knockbacks?
- Have in mind that you cannot use GetLocationZ() function for jump.
I have no intention of worrying about desyncs and needing to create custom warstomp, custom shockwave, custom....
Damage + knockback. He tosses them away with the force of pounding the ground... it's pretty obvious visually, so don't worry there. I plan to do a parabolic jump to target point + AoE damage and knockback. It's not very difficult... I won't use GetLocationZ(); it's sort of overkill anyway, especially for the limited height variation of this map.

Quote:
Skill Three: Bash
- This is a clear no. All 4 spells must be active! Only Innate can be pasive.
Having a passive spell reduces number of possible player actions.
I'll switch this out with the Innate skill then. 'Kill two birds and get stoned,' as we used to say.

Quote:
Skill ULTIMATE: Brewzer
- anyone who has watched drunken master with jackie chan knows that drinking does not increase hp regen but gives evasion :)
A better alternative would be to make this an ultimate that adds Drunken Brawler ability to a hero. (evasion + crit)
This is mostly a result of the Paladin for some reason having Avatar. And the health regen is better because it can be used as a heal in addition to just damage negation.


Quote:
What is the lore/theme of this hero?
Angry? It has no rage spells.
Hammer? Hammer & Drinking?
I think you need one more drinking related spell to make it into theme.
Skill Three could probably be default wc3 Drunken Haze.
I see I was not serious enough with my Hero Name. The theme is that he is a dwarf. The Hero Name might as well be "Dwarf."
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:50 PM   #30
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You can take Avatar for a Dwarf if you think of a good ulty for Paladin.
Also note that bash on paladin is triggered (you can bash bosses when hero is in avatar form)
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