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Old 10-29-2009, 08:03 PM   #496
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Well, the irony is that some of Ano's points are actually valid, and happen to be directed against the dude who was doing most of the whining earlier.

Anyway, early congratulations to 67chrome, and condolences to Anopob. :/
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:29 PM   #497
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I somehow don't think you're all doing the math right for this, but we'll see when Vex cranks it out.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:52 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
I don't know why everyone rants about votes. The whole point of a vote is for it to be someone's opinion. You should be damned happy we make them explain their votes in the first place and not complain about it. Jeez. :/
I understand, but some things were really getting on my nerves, especially the food produce argument (it, for me, was just like blatantly saying "i didn't test properly"). Everything else is mainly just a cosmetic/opinion, so you're right, and if he doesn't reply about it I'll just leave it be and won't nag him about it.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:59 PM   #499
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The reality is that all races to compare to have only one source of food. At the start of my test of the bone race, I actually thought having to spam graves was awesome for food, until I realized that it was lame that there was another structure that was more efficient at giving food. I would have made the graves collisionless and had them be the basis for the race's blight, then you'd spam a graveyard of graves everywhere you wanted to construct structures. That would've been awesome, and would've doubled as the food source.

Anyways, I don't believe it is the user's fault if something in the race is confusing or awkward. I believe that the fault lies always with the designer of the race. It should be glaringly obvious, and having multiple structures serve the same role is anything but obvious.
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:00 PM   #500
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Well, maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but here's my tally...
Hidden information:
Gyrosphinx:
Bone, Witches, Onslaught, Nomads/Scorps
Anopob:
Bone, Onslaught, Witches/Scorps, Nomads
Sunwarrior25:
Onslaught, Bone, Scorps, Witches, Nomads
67chrome:
Onslaught, Nomads, Witches, Bone, Scorps
cosmicat:
Bone, Onslaught/Nomads/Witches, Scorps
Spellbound:
Witches, Onslaught, Nomads, Bone/Scorps
Dragoon:
Nomads, Onslaught, Bone/Witches, Scorps
Rising_Dusk:
Nomads, Bone, Witches, Onslaught, Scorps
Alevice:
Bone/Nomads, Onslaught/Witches/Scorps
The Dark One:
Scorps, Witches, Onslaught, Nomads, Bone

Bone (6) > Witches (3)
Bone (5) == Onslaught (5)
Bone (4) < Nomads (5)
Bone (8) > Scorps (1)

Witches (3) < Bone (6)
Witches (4) == Onslaught (4)
Witches (5) > Nomads (4)
Witches (6) > Scorps (2)

Onslaught (5) == Bone (5)
Onslaught (4) == Witches (4)
Onslaught (6) > Nomads (3)
Onslaught (8) > Scorps (1)

Nomads (5) > Bone (4)
Nomads (4) < Witches (5)
Nomads (3) < Onslaught (6)
Nomads (6) > Scorps (3)

Scorps (1) < Bone (8)
Scorps (2) < Witches (6)
Scorps (1) < Onslaught (8)
Scorps (3) < Nomads (6)

Onslaught wins.

It seems I didn't end up following the "path strength" heuristic after all, though, so I could be wrong. Still, it seems like this is a reasonable approximation of the outcome...

Edit: According to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
It is possible to prove that p[X,Y] > p[Y,X] and p[Y,Z] > p[Z,Y] together imply p[X,Z] > p[Z,X] [1]. Therefore, it is guaranteed (1) that the above definition of "better" really defines a transitive relation and (2) that there is always at least one candidate D with p[D,E] ≥ p[E,D] for every other candidate E.
The implication is that this "candidate D" is the winner using the Schulze method, and by transitive relation Onslaught ≥ all other candidates by the above tally.

I didn't bother counting Templar and Chess against the other races because I'm sure they lose to everything - even Scorps.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:07 PM   #501
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You have this much free time and yet you didn't finish your race? You officially suck that much harder.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:16 PM   #502
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Hahahahahahaha
Yeah...I have this much free time now. I honestly didn't until a couple weeks ago, though. >_>

Besides, even an O(n^2) algorithm has a fairly brief human execution time if n is sufficiently small, which it was in this case (n=10).

I won't deny that I do suck, though, and very hard at that.
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:57 AM   #503
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Cosmicat, I don't want to hear that from someone who mistook a melee hero for a ranged one (but I did enough whining, sorry). And what did you mean by "even scorps" of course they'd lose against me since they are UNFINISHED (even though I can't tell if they would have won if they were).

Rising dusk, why do you keep changing your avatar? is that a hobby or something?

Anopob, let me say this:
The workers bothered me for 1-Having human sound. 2-Funny wood gathering animation (not really but a little). 3-Strange gold carrying behaviour (try to make one of them stand after they carry gold). and finally 4-The method of obtaining them felt wrong. But the worker was the least of the reasons I gave you low rank.

I apologize for the food misunderstanding, but if tombs were the food building then why did the graves give food in the first place. And don't you think that making a food building (which is built a lot) produce a unit is wrong, and the unit in question is a cheap no food costing and have short building time, you do the math. A unit that doesn't cost food defeats the whole porpuse of the food limit, it's cheating no matter how you look at it, and if you say that they are weak, they die twice and can merge with each other for healing effect. this is not unbalanced, this is unreasonable. The same can be said about the skeletons who have good armor and cost only 1 food and can die 3 times if a corpse is available.
You have a problem with food since no unit in your race cost more then 3 (save for the hero).

The renew ability says it needs a corpse but the skeleton just stares at the corpse without consuming it, is that how you wanted it to be? If he needed it then he should have taken some of it and you can't reanimate a corpse that is missing a leg and a ripcage.

The bone towers preduce corpses, but these corpses are special (mana) and no one else can use them, what?! (you get the point here).

One would think that a graveyard would have more corpses then a single tomb, but one may be wrong. Since the tombs are the food building, you could have made the graveyard produce corpses as well to maintain the theme (it wouldn't hurt).

Your god unit was a cheap frost wyrm with chaos attack and a reanimation spell that wouldn't be usefull since all corpses would have been already used by your worlocks, basilisks, fortified contraptions or the hero. your god unit was more of a flaying MCV (red alert 2) that had an attack.

Oh, I just noticed but the tomb doesn't have a ground texture (thought to mention it).

Look at this and tell me that the rank I gave you was a mistake:
1- Low to no visual effects and no modified buildings (no eye candy and you didn't even blight the ground which is a must for all undeadish races).
2- Bad hero (more bad then other heroes).
3- Not very special units (save for the mechanical units, I guess I expected more) and the abilities weren't that impressive.
4- Not impressive god unit.
5- The theme wasn't boosted enough (they looked undead more then a bone race).

In terms of strategy, your race may beat the rest but that is not enough since the other races had there own unique strategies + visual effects and creative ideas and blah blah blah. Your race was good, but not as good as the other races.
The only special thing about your race is the over dependence on corpses which I find annoying since there is a limit to how many corpses you can find on the battle field. Since you have buildings that produce corpses, you should have thought about the use of corpses outside the battle more then in.

In the end, my vote was just my opinion (I am more of an art/consept guy then a gameplay guy) and many others actually enjoied your race more then the other races so don't mind me.
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:56 PM   #504
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First off, just wanted to say anything that I don't reply to can be assumed to be fixed or understood (like before). And I'm only responding because some of your words make it seem like you really want me to clarify, so I am. Thanks in advance for the more in-depth review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
I apologize for the food misunderstanding, but if tombs were the food building then why did the graves give food in the first place.
What's wrong with having more than 2 food producers (main food producer + town hall)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
And don't you think that making a food building (which is built a lot) produce a unit is wrong, and the unit in question is a cheap no food costing and have short building time, you do the math. A unit that doesn't cost food defeats the whole porpuse of the food limit, it's cheating no matter how you look at it, and if you say that they are weak, they die twice and can merge with each other for healing effect. this is not unbalanced, this is unreasonable.
I do not really get what the difference between unbalanced and unreasonable is, in this context. You say that the food producer building which is supposed to be made a lot (which it is) makes a unit that can "merge" to heal and die twice. It costs 105 gold, no lumber, no food cost, and has a fast building time. We both can agree it's not unbalanced, but unreasonable? How?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
... and you can't reanimate a corpse that is missing a leg and a ripcage.
We're in the Warcraft universe, how can you argue what you can animate and what you can't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
Look at this and tell me that the rank I gave you was a mistake:
1- Low to no visual effects and no modified buildings (no eye candy and you didn't even blight the ground which is a must for all undeadish races).
Again, how can you argue this (the bolded part)? Do all humanoid races need to be able to speed-build by having more than one peasant working?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
5- The theme wasn't boosted enough (they looked undead more then a bone race).
The dead have bones, but I guess you're referring to have more only skeleton-type of units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
In terms of strategy, your race may beat the rest but that is not enough since the other races had there own unique strategies + visual effects and creative ideas and blah blah blah.
Okay (not sure what you mean by unique strategies though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
The only special thing about your race is the over dependence on corpses which I find annoying since there is a limit to how many corpses you can find on the battle field. Since you have buildings that produce corpses, you should have thought about the use of corpses outside the battle more then in.
Limit of corpses on battle field depends hugely on everything in the current game, but I agree on "outside" uses.
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:46 AM   #505
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Well, if you think that my "in depth-review" is useful then I'll keep going until we cover everything.

First, there may be nothing wrong with having more then two food production buildings, but players who are used to the standared races would think of only two food buildings and once they find them they would stop the search and move on (and for the record, most people don't read the tool tips until they feel lost). On the other hand, why would there be more then one building to serve the same porpuse? The only reason the town hall has food production is for the sake of the starting units.

The difference between balance and reason is that balance can be argued about for a long time before reaching a good agrement, reason is to gudge using simple logic which is hard to miss. Think about the following scenario:
I have bones and someone else has something else, I make an army and attack and get my ass kicked, my enemy rallys the remains of his forces and counter attacks my base, it should take about (30-20) seconds to get his ranks to my base. I have about (12-15) tomb building corpses for (1200-1500) gold which shouldn't be a problem to have at that stage of the game and by the first (10) seconds I would have (12-15) corpses (they have about 10 seconds building time) and by the time my enemy gets to my base I should have about (20-25) corpses and a couple of your super warlocks who would raise a nice number of skeletons (about 8 of them by then) and not to mention the bone towers and that's that for the enemy counter attack. And if the enemy decides to take some more time to reorganize a proper army, I would have the time to organize about half a proper army with my corpses on reserve for defence or rush attack before the main attack and my enemy loses no matter what he trays (save for crushing me at the early stages of the game which may be even harder to achieve). Maybe that is not the right way to look at it but this is not the only scenario where a cheap fast building no food costing can cause serious issues (my enemy takes his sweet time to run around with his army to get some level up for his heroes and by the time he gets to my base i would have an army equal to his within the food limit + an army of the cheap no food costing corpses and we still haven't said anything about the strength balance of the food costing units). Corpses are weak alright, but being able to build as many of them as you want is ... you get the point, no?

One last thing about corpses, what is the matter with them turning into ghost necromancers? A shade or a void walker or even a flaying green fire ball would have been better not to mention that the idea of a corpse turning into a ghost on its own is odd, it would have been better if the warlock had the ability to sacrafice a corpse unit (or any corpse) to summon a scouting spirite, don't you think?


Using logic, one can argue about anything. You need a corpse with a complete skeleton to raise a complete skeleton worrior, there is no partial use of corpses you either use them or you don't. We can have a more in depth-discussion about reanimation spells using PMs if you want.

When people settle in an area they tend to convert the area (terrain and envirnoment) to fit with their way of living, that is the porpuse of the ground textures of the buildings but that may not be enough in some cases such as the undeadish races who despise life and tend to bring darkness and desolation to whatever place they inhabit. There are certain racial treats that you need to keep in mind to maintain a good theme (does the look of green grassed ground in a base of undead skeletons look right to you? It didn't to me and it didn't look right on the ground of my race and thus I changed the terrain to maintain the theme, after all, the theme is one of the most important aspects of custom racing).

The name is not "Meat and Bones" it is just "Bones" so, yes, I'd expect more skeletons in a race that is called "Bone". there is a nice family of skeleton models in the resources of this forum so why not use them? And there are some skeletons in game that you, for some reason, have ignored (The orc skeleton and the skeleton archers).

I have some ideas that I think would be good in your race, I'll send them in a PM some time later if you want.
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Old 10-31-2009, 09:17 PM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
First, there may be nothing wrong with having more then two food production buildings, but players who are used to the standared races would think of only two food buildings and once they find them they would stop the search and move on (and for the record, most people don't read the tool tips until they feel lost). On the other hand, why would there be more then one building to serve the same porpuse? The only reason the town hall has food production is for the sake of the starting units.
I guess this depends on the player then; I for one always read tooltips to know what I'm building (until I know what that building does of course), especially concerning early game in which most strategies require an altar + food source building to be built immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
//balance and reason\\
I figured that was okay though. First of all, assuming you had that much gold instead of making REAL units is shocking. If this ever did happen, we can assume the enemy player has that much gold too. If he had that much gold, he could either stock up at 50 food, or break upkeep. Either way, once he comes into your base, and in your scenario you have little to no units remaining, you will have about ~15 food left due to your workers. There is little way that your bone towers + corpses/warlocks/skeletons could hold off his remaining army, if he played even decently and knew how to harass with what he had left (does not have to be 50 food).

Other scenarios revolve around the same thing, usually. If you are spending that much gold on corpses, and for example trying to get the biggest army you can at 50 food, the enemy will by then have enough gold to confidently break upkeep, in which you will not stand a chance. The only real problematic scenario I could think of is at 100 food (both players), where it is really really rare for that to happen anyway. If you are spending that much gold on Corpses, we should be able to assume that the enemy is not stupid enough and can spend that money by either re-stocking his army while fighting yours, or buying items/mercenaries/zeppelins/etc.

Perhaps it is in a really minor way unreasonable, but what race is not? Personally, in my experiences (single player with bots, 1v1 2v2 etc., as well as multiplayer with people), it was not in any way unreasonable, especially since they cannot even tank/damage too efficiently anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
One last thing about corpses, what is the matter with them turning into ghost necromancers? A shade or a void walker or even a flaying green fire ball would have been better not to mention that the idea of a corpse turning into a ghost on its own is odd, it would have been better if the warlock had the ability to sacrafice a corpse unit (or any corpse) to summon a scouting spirite, don't you think?
Actually, I really do like the idea. I'll either take a different model file or get another unit to cast a spell on a Corpse, thanks for this. What I was trying to implement with the necromancer was the "soul" of the corpse, but perhaps it was a bad interpretation of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
Using logic, one can argue about anything. You need a corpse with a complete skeleton to raise a complete skeleton worrior, there is no partial use of corpses you either use them or you don't. We can have a more in depth-discussion about reanimation spells using PMs if you want.
Well, the spell's name is Renew, not Replace All Bones or something similar. If, in example, one of the Skeleton's bones are broken, damaged, etc., it can either ignore it or use magic and "Renew" it. I guess the concept I was going for was that it replaced its damaged bones with other ones, but perhaps that does not work as properly as I assumed it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
When people settle in an area they tend to convert the area (terrain and envirnoment) to fit with their way of living, that is the porpuse of the ground textures of the buildings but that may not be enough in some cases such as the undeadish races who despise life and tend to bring darkness and desolation to whatever place they inhabit. There are certain racial treats that you need to keep in mind to maintain a good theme (does the look of green grassed ground in a base of undead skeletons look right to you? It didn't to me and it didn't look right on the ground of my race and thus I changed the terrain to maintain the theme, after all, the theme is one of the most important aspects of custom racing).
I definitely agree that theme is important to the development of any custom race, but there is always balance needed. My race used a lot of corpses, and it did not seem devilishly evil like the Undead race (who is definitely a lot darker than just a compilation of "bones" and "corpses" personally). The blight was too dark for my tastes with the bone race, but depending on the person it could be better than nothing for the textures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
The name is not "Meat and Bones" it is just "Bones" so, yes, I'd expect more skeletons in a race that is called "Bone". there is a nice family of skeleton models in the resources of this forum so why not use them? And there are some skeletons in game that you, for some reason, have ignored (The orc skeleton and the skeleton archers).
From what I remember, this is the list of non-imported skeletons:
  • Skeletal Orc
  • Skeletal Orc (Blue)
  • Skeletal Orc (Green)
  • Skeleton Warrior
  • Skeletal Archer
  • Skeletal Archer (in flames)
  • Skeletal Mage
Since the 2 imports I could afford (maximum 3 imports for the custom race, as well as maximum size limit, I was under the limit by 1 kb) were bone, I figured it was enough. I could not use all skeletons because I were using their icons for something else; I thought it would look weird if you saw multiple icons scattered around the place which produced different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark One
I have some ideas that I think would be good in your race, I'll send them in a PM some time later if you want.
We should continue this in PMs. I'll stop with the contest thread posts concerning this. Thanks again.

---

@Rising_Dusk: I'm not sure how I did, but I missed your post regarding designing and the grave no-collision blight spread thing (kind of like Creep Colonies in Starcraft). My intention was actually to spam Tombs (not Graves) to get more corpses and double as a food source, but that clearly did not work.
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Old 11-02-2009, 02:42 PM   #507
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Anyways, this contest is closed. Congratulations to 67chrome for coming out the victor in a rather close competition. Feel free to spam reputation at each other for your favorite races and stuff (I welcome it). I will give out the reward icon in a few minutes.

I'll leave this thread open to discussion like I did with the last one. If you have any brilliant ideas for the 3rd contest, lay them on me. I likely won't start it as long as the 4th hero contest is running, however, but it is possible to have it going on sometime over winter break. (God forbid in that case I might actually enter)
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:31 PM   #508
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How about increasing the import limit to 4 or 5 and removing the God unit? I didn't really like the idea of a god unit anyway. Also, increasing the cap on the max number of buildings and units by 1 or 2 would be cool.
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:35 PM   #509
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The God unit was the whole theme of the contest. It obviously won't be a part of the third contest because I don't recycle themes. I also don't want to add too many imports because then it becomes a random import clusterf*ck. I want people to concentrate more on the race mechanics and clever use of in-game stuff than importing the coolest models evar to their map. There is a rather poorly strung together race-building contest on the Hive right now that proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And I don't ever plan on increasing the number of units/buildings. Honestly, the races that used the whole limit were painfully repetitive and lackluster. I'd rather fewer, concentrated units/structures than more filler ones.
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:36 PM   #510
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removing all/some rules (imports, number of buildings/units,....)
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