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Old 10-19-2008, 07:00 PM   #16
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It's funny. Up until 10th grade they taught us all this shit in writing, and once we hit 10th grade, the teacher came right out and said, almost verbatim: "Everything you've been taught since kindergarten, except basic grammar and writing, is shit as of this point."

Everyone thus far has bombed every writing assignment because the required technique is so vastly different.


basically, for the tl;dr, what they teach in schools is crap. They teach to write long expansive paragraphs, then tell you to condense your writing, but at the same time be descriptive but not OVER descriptive, but... (and so on). It's all contradictory and annoying as hell. Especially when your grades are on the line and you don't know how the hell you're supposed to write any more.


And BB, even your re-write was dripping with over-description. It's one thing to be descriptive, it's another to overdo it. Not every noun needs its own team of adjective and adverbs (like they teach in 5-7th grade here). (But compared to the original, it's a lot lot better).

Also, I'm noticing Kyrbi, that you're basically taking what people are saying and plugging it into a thesaurus. Your first example is literally a re-write of what he said with different words but meaning the same thing. That does not necessarily mean better writing. Example:

Original:
-The boy ran with the dog, sweat dripping from his forehead and leaving small spots on the ground, the only reminder he had been there.

New:
-The young adolescent ran alongside the dog, perspiration drenching his brow and plumetting to the ground below, temporarily staining the ground with only a moist reminder that the boy had once been there.

The second is longer and fancier, but it says the same exact thing with too much fluff. It just gets... tiring. It sounds too much like "epic" literature and poetry; like you're TRYING to sound fancy. A good balance between the two is needed; something like this.

New^2:
-The boy ran alongside the dog, sweat drenching his brow and falling to the ground, leaving moist splotches on the ground as a reminder the boy had been there.

See how it sort of incorporates both sentences, while still being both (semi)sophisticated and easy to read?
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwulfv
New^2:
-The boy ran alongside the dog, sweat drenching his brow and falling to the ground, leaving moist splotches on the ground as a reminder the boy had been there.

Except you repeated the word 'ground' too close together, and so it sounds clumsy. :(

In fact, I think that second reference to "the ground" is entirely redundant.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:21 PM   #18
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True, it is. My mistake. But the point still stands.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:06 AM   #19
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You guys really underestimate literature writing, what you said has truth to it, however, the reason of implanting adjectives and adverbs is to increase the power of the text. Unlike painting where image speak for themselves writers most increase the length and complexity of their work to increase the impact of the text, if you still can't understand try to read something for Charles Dickens and then read something for Gabriel Garsia Markes and you'll see the difference.

BBDino, as for your attempt for rewriting Kyrbio's example, that is an advertisement for a horror them park, all power of the text has been " siphoned away", while He described a hellish realm. So stop trimming (butchering) other peoples work.

Tide-Arc, thy teach you literature not casual writing, going straight to the point is the way of a machine without any artistic feel.

darkwolfv, I don't know what you have against fancy writing, Warcraft is an epic game and all writings related to it should hold the same level of power or it'll look out of place. It's, however, true that balance most be considered to insure that the idea reaches all minds, even those who aren’t very versed in long rarely used English words, but you can't be too descriptive when describing a place or the appearance of a character, chick the RPG form to see what I'm talking about.

Karbio, I've sent you a sample of my work, try to rewrite it your way and PM me the result.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:58 AM   #20
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I said any mapmaker worth a damn can make tooltips on his own, and in wc3c, pretty much all of em are, except for the newbies.

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And BB, even your re-write was dripping with over-description. It's one thing to be descriptive, it's another to overdo it. Not every noun needs its own team of adjective and adverbs (like they teach in 5-7th grade here). (But compared to the original, it's a lot lot better).

Only a little bit, but pretty good in my opinion.

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You guys really underestimate literature writing, what you said has truth to it, however, the reason of implanting adjectives and adverbs is to increase the power of the text. Unlike painting where image speak for themselves writers most increase the length and complexity of their work to increase the impact of the text, if you still can't understand try to read something for Charles Dickens and then read something for Gabriel Garsia Markes and you'll see the difference.

And you sir, are annoying me, just for the statement "you guys really underestimate literature writing." Why? Because if I were those people that "underestimate literature" I would be just as soon to discount anything you have to say at all as something to be ignored.

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BBDino, as for your attempt for rewriting Kyrbio's example, that is an advertisement for a horror them park, all power of the text has been " siphoned away", while He described a hellish realm. So stop trimming (butchering) other peoples work.

Excuse me? Other than it was a little over-decriptive it was freakin fine, I think you sir, should be more positive and say "It was fine but you could work on a few things" and give some suggestions. If you don't got anything constructive to say, Don't say anything period, I'm a big believer that alot of writers are discouraged by statements like
Quote:
So stop trimming (butchering) other peoples work.

The butchering word is a no-no word around here, that wasn't butchering, yes mr kirby is a good writer, I won't deny that, but not everyone has all the friggin answers, sometimes another person's viewpoints has its plusses.

I sound rude I know, but that's not the intent, I just say it how I see it, very blunt.

But more often than not bluntness get's the job done, I care nothing for subtlety except in my writing.

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Old 10-20-2008, 02:40 AM   #21
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"The Dark One", please stop preaching like you're the lord of all writing. Warcraft is not "epic". The Odyssey is epic. Greek literature is epic. You CAN be too descriptive when describing a someone, or somewhere, because then it drags on forever, gets boring, and looks really bad.

BBDino did not "butcher" what Kyrbi wrote. He shortened it and made it far more concise, while still conveying the same image and message with less fluff. There's a HUGE difference between good and bad fancy writing. For your information, I have nothing against "fancy" writing, but what you're describing isn't "fancy". It's fluffy. Fancy is using sophisticated words, and well. Not lots of "sophisticated" words all over the damn place when shorter words hold the same impact.
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BBDino, as for your attempt for rewriting Kyrbio's example, that is an advertisement for a horror them park, all power of the text has been " siphoned away", while He described a hellish realm. So stop trimming (butchering) other peoples work.
They both describe the same place and convey the same message. You seem to have it in your head that more words == more sophisticated, when really it's not.

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going straight to the point is the way of a machine without any artistic feel.
Wrong. It's called "making sense". Writing would be boring if it were straight to the point, yes, but inserting 5 paragraphs of description where only 1 is necessary does NOT make it more "artistic".
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:48 AM   #22
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See, I'm interested in this because I'm writing something myself right now.

I keep thinking, "I've got to go back and add more fluff."

But when I try to do that, it just doesn't feel right; it doesn't seem to fit at all.

So what's worse; mechanically follow the plot or mechanically shove in shittonnes of bonus words?
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Dark One
Tide-Arc, thy teach you literature not casual writing, going straight to the point is the way of a machine without any artistic feel.
Yeah, but when the fuck am I going to pick up a book and think "Oh, maybe this (insert phrase X) could mean (insert distant and hardly related phrase Y)?". No! I don't even read books! But all I know is people read them in interest, not to analyze them!

Also, how many people have written useful imaginative texts? Now place that against the number of people who have lived overall, or for more fair comparisons - try going for people who have contributed useful actual texts or how many people actually learn something applicable... then place how much they contribute to society versus how much even a hotel janitor contributes.

None of this "This book gave me message X" bull.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by darkwulfv
And BB, even your re-write was dripping with over-description. It's one thing to be descriptive, it's another to overdo it. Not every noun needs its own team of adjective and adverbs (like they teach in 5-7th grade here). (But compared to the original, it's a lot lot better).ground with only a moist reminder that the boy had once been there.

I was trying to preserve as much of his original language as possible. It was never meant to be a full rewrite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rao Dao Zao
So what's worse; mechanically follow the plot or mechanically shove in shittonnes of bonus words?

The latter, in my opinion. At worst the former will be boring. The latter can be unreadable garbage.

The key is to use as few words as possible to get across your intended imagery. You can't control exactly how the reader interprets a work, so instead communicate enough to make sure you're on the same page and let their imagination do the rest. Only focus on the important bits: i'll fill in the rest.

That is not to say that you shouldn't use any descriptive language, but use it cleverly.

A well placed similie or metaphor, for instance, can describe as much as a paragraph of dense prose.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:38 PM   #25
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Woah woah woah. This thing fairly exploded in, like, 2 days.

Ok, I don't have time to read it all right now, but lemme just throw something in about an issue you guys seem to be having...

Perhaps the "horror movie description" paragraph was a bad example of my writing. Most of the other stuff (essays) seemed too long. And yes, I like BBDino's thing. But he (and you guys) misunderstood, kinda. I basically did "Thesaurus-ize" the original text. Except I mainly used my head (= claim to fame) as opposed to an actual Thesaurus. :P
I couldn't provide the original to you, which is a shame. Basically, I didn't want to cut any of his sentences out (the original author's), so yes, I agree, it's too long and wordy.
(Although I tend to be too wordy also... :P)

Perhaps I will get to the rest of this later. Bleh, you guys are fast.
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:58 PM   #26
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I'm reading this, and I believe in some things, while others, I don't really.

@darkwulfv
I understand what you mean. Although, your English teacher probably wasn't too keen on having their students discover their own voice and style. It is about being concise, yet descriptive. It's also about being modest, and grand. I was constantly told that it's about who you're trying to appeal to. Well... that's the problem, right there. There's nothing in existence that appeals to everyone, or everything for that matter. Some people... just don't agree, no matter how much you try to convince them. I like how Kyrbi0 wrote in his example, Hunter of Shadows things that this is all a waste of time, and you and BBDino think that Kyrbi0 needs to lighten the load.

This is how I think of it: Let's say you were writing for something that is comedic. You can't make it all laughs, because- eventually, you'll get tired of laughing. That's kind of how it is for writing. You can't do too much of something, otherwise it loses the value it's supposed to give. It goes for simplicity and complexity.

@BBDino
I understand how you feel about being concise, but I can't agree with how you squeezed Kyrbi0's example paragraph like that. I know that what you did was for pure example, while trying to keep as much as possible... but considering that The Dark One called it butchering- I couldn't help but notice the euphemism used here. I have to agree with The Dark One though: You can offer suggestions and such, but please don't completely edit something without the author's permission. Kyrbi0 gave out the example as what it was: an example. Nothing more.

The reason why I'm saying that is because I personally wouldn't be too happy if someone took something I wrote and re-wrote it without ever telling me about the intention of doing so. You did do it and posted it here- which is good, but if in the event that someone didn't know any better, they could've mistaken yours as the original version while calling Kyrib0 a plagiarist- the ultimate disgrace to a writer. I did it once, eight years ago. Never want to do it again. Lucky for me, eight years ago was 5th grade.

@The Dark One
I'm one of the ones that underestimates literature writing, haha. I'll be completely honest: I've never read Romeo and Juliet. Neither did I read Huckleberry Finn, or Tom Sawyer. Mark Twain doesn't really appeal to me. I don't fully understand Ayn Rand, either. I think the point is, is that I just... never "got it". Some people I know- when they read, they understand everything. When I read books from the authors from above, I stand here after reading a paragraph and go, "Huh?". This happened when I was reading the story excerpts from the Warcraft III manual, too. Maybe I just don't like reading.

I know that when Hunter of Shadows and Plasma Dragon say, "You don't read all of the way, do you?" or, "You didn't read it word for word, did you?" Yeah, I don't read all of it. But- hey, I still read about 80% of it. That counts, doesn't it? X_X

@Hunter of Shadows
Hunter, don't feel bad about being blunt. At least you're aware of it. And besides, sometimes you just need to get a slap on the cheek.

@Rao Dao Zao
I know what you're talking about. Pillows that are too fluffy are good for your head, but become painful for your back.

I think that the mechanically chugging bonus words isn't the way to go. It's doesn't sound like you, anymore. I won't complain, if that's how your writing style develops, but I want to hear you, not someone else, not something else.

@Tide-Arc Ephemera
As much as you don't think of it, there are people who have jobs that do just that. When you have to think, "Oh, passage X means ya-de-ya-da". Not a great job, I think. But, you never know. Some people just love that stuff.

As for how many people have written useful imaginative texts- I wouldn't know.

Finally... @Kyrbi0
Yeah... I wasn't expecting this, either.

---

In my ventures with writing- all of the ups and downs included, I think it's about two things:
- Communicating through a means other than actually speaking.
- Finding your written voice.

Some people seem to forget that reason #2 is the most important. Believe me, if you were to talk to me in the face, I don't speak like I do write. Some people tell me that I become a different person when I start writing. Ha, it's not anything like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (which I also didn't read X_X), but writing is just a more comfortable medium for me.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:37 PM   #27
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I don't feel bad about being blunt, I just don't want people to take offense, the fastest way between two points is a straight line, I'm going to cut to the chase

You got a problem with that, cry to someone who cares. It certainly isnt me.

Quote:
I know that when Hunter of Shadows and Plasma Dragon say, "You don't read all of the way, do you?" or, "You didn't read it word for word, did you?" Yeah, I don't read all of it. But- hey, I still read about 80% of it. That counts, doesn't it? X_X

No it doesn't count you silly noob :P (I'm joking, for those of you that don't know what humor is)

As for how this thread exploded, I meant to address that, when I checked it and seen how it had become an arguement about literature I was irritated and meant to tell people to get the hell back on topic, either request writing, or get out. Let's not discuss what good writing is.

However, I admit I failed at life and was so irritated over Dark's post that I then proceeded to tell him to be a bit nicer and as wolf so nicely put it, not to preach like he was the lord of all writing.

My bad, blame me star, I feel bad about contributing to the arguement, blah.

Needless to say, from this point on, either request some writing, discuss what was created, or get out.

Period

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Old 10-20-2008, 11:53 PM   #28
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I contributed, too, so you're not alone there. X_X

Hold on, Krybi0. I'll give you something within the next couple of hours. Expect a PM, soon.

EDIT: Oh- wait. Do you want me to put this in Notepad, Wordpad, or Microsoft Word 2003/2007+?

EDIT #2: Wait... What the hell am I talking about? Gah, nevermind!
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Old 10-21-2008, 01:12 AM   #29
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Well, sine I am the one who started this, I think I should finish it.
First, I apologize to all who were offended by what I wrote, I meant no offence and I did go overboard, so I am sorry.

Hunter, I know that you don't underestimate literature (I've seen you're work in the RPG form) but your "worth a damn" got me as irritated is my statement did to you, nothing is worth a damn (especially people) even if you think that it's worthless, and I don't understand your sense of humor and I am almost as blunt as you are (more or less).

darkwolfv, no I am not the lord of all writing, I actually hate it but have full respect to writers because I consider writing to be one of the most difficult arts, and I am not preaching, I am stating my opinion like every body else, so why do you try to make it like if I am trying to force my opinion on others? I think Warcraft is epic, it's alright if you don't, I respect others opinions as much as I'd like them to respect mine.

Ignitedstar said everything else I wanted to say and saved me the trouble of writing it, thank you Ignited.

In the end, people have different ideas about different things, different tastes and different prospective, respecting that is the essence of being civilized.
Just shut up already (talking to myself).
End of discussion, back to requests.

Kyrbio, how is your paper work going (did you finish it? Or are you stalling around it?), I am waiting for the result of the sample I've sent you, but don't press your self for it, PM it whenever it's done.
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Old 10-21-2008, 03:20 AM   #30
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I'll be completely honest: I've never read Romeo and Juliet. Neither did I read Huckleberry Finn, or Tom Sawyer
Romeo and Juliet is shit (purely opinion). Not worth reading, man, unless you like confusing poetic stanzas, the ultimate in teenage drama, BANISH-ED, and confusing english. I mean I concede I was young when I read it, but even still; looking back it's a mediocre story.

Quick synopsis: (it's a tl;dr story)
-Romeo, 14ish falls in random love with a chick, Juliet (he was heartbroken over a previous love affair) at a rich-snob party. They kiss in 5 minutes, and in 15 decide they are eternal soulmates.
-Within less than a week, about 3 days, the following happens:
-They make out more
-They visit in the night
-They run off
-Romeo's friend dies, and he in turn kills someone.
-BANISH-ED! BANISH-ED! BANISH-ED! BANISH-ED! (anyone who has read it knows exactly what I'm talking about)
-Romeo dies
-Juliet dies.

In a matter of 3 days, 2 complete teenage strangers cause 2 families immense irreparable grief. And stuff. All while being nearly impossible to understand due to shakesperean english. (it was when I read it).

Of course, I was in like, 8th grade. It was boring as hell. I'm sure to a more knowledgeable and well-read reader, it might be a little better.


Huck Finn was a fun book, I enjoyed reading it. Tom Sawyer was pretty good too. They aren't literary masterpieces IMO; just really good books. In fact, I don't like books being called "literary masterpieces". Books are just books. I mean obviously some are far superior to others, and some have survived far longer than others, but... I just don't like the term "masterpiece" when regarding books... because then it puts Romeo and Juliet on par with a lot of really good books; and I don't like to think that it is. (That was a terrible month of 8th grade.)



I'm with BBDino regarding RDZ's question; at worst it will be boring. Over-describing makes it confusing and hard to read, and you lose the main words in a sea of adjectives and adverbs. The best writers will often leave it to the reader to imagine the characters and the setting. If everything were described for me, it'd be boring. Books are so interesting because it allows us to concoct our own characters within the characters given. If the author sits down and spends 8 pages describing their characters in excrutiating detail, the reader can't think for themselves. That, and it's boring as heellll.

A well placed metaphor, simile, or a few good words can completely open the way for description and, as previously stated, can do the work of a full paragraph, and still leave room for the reader to imagine the scene/character themself.
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The Spell Request Thread
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Originally Posted by Joe-Black-5
a dota like map but with unique stuff
(There was no map attached, and that was all the thread said.)
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