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Old 11-08-2004, 05:49 PM   #16
FieldMedic
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This ancient (i think i took the screenshot under W3 version 1.04)team game screenshot (click on it to display the bigger version) is the explanation of why Blizzard AI is actually more difficult to fight in team games than the AMAI army.



As you can see and imagine, keeping the CPU allies together help greatly their attack power.
AMAI is a bit too independant in team games actually and so a team (human player or not) grouped together like the Blizzard AI in the screenshot will always destroy an alone AMAI army as his AMAI allies is not backing it up.

The plan system will certainly be very welcome to change that situation :)
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Old 11-10-2004, 06:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitch
Watch the replays (I'll stop saying that now :)), I've done (at the least) the comparative work for you. At worst, you should be able to see why we find Blizzard a touch harder in team games (even if it's simply down the way we play).

I dont see anything wrong with amai in team game, I guess what u mean by inferior was amai is inferior to human players who has been playing alot for the last 3 years and has been memorizing every possible strategy script that amai is going to use.

I watched your replay , imo that amai's weakness is if we rush right from the beginning of the game, and continue to give them a pressure. Another weakness is in team game Amai could not communicate each other to select the right strategy which support them in the battle. For example if the one team use dryads and mg strat the other use hippo and chims, etc.

Compare to blizzard ai in team games, they always use one strategy and creating every units they possibly have in every tier (air,land,casters) and it targets hero, thats all what make it a bit harder to beat.

About allies helping each other in battle i think is all the same, even good thing if we have amai ally that we can extort them and we can ask them to attack/guard units, which is impossible in blizzard ai.

If there's a way to make amai also target heroes, iam sure amai would be alot harder than blizz ai.

If in the future amai that the every profile could gather experience from time to time and then they could also memorize human player strategies hehe!

Last night i played 3 games for a test in same map ,2 vs 2 normal mode. i beat blizz ai very easy and quite harder to beat amai. In one of the game I gave amai team sometimes to develop their base, uh dang, they developed so well and finally beat the shit out of me!.

Just a tip to get a good fun game with amai is to give them sometimes to develope their base well, just a minute, I am sure that amai plays alot better .
No matter how many time you give blizz ai they still too easy in normal.

Actually they both easy for me so i play on insane mode for better challenge :P
 
Old 11-10-2004, 10:30 AM   #18
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The point is that I'm not a player who has been playing for the last three years, I'm new to this, and about a month ago my GF, brother and I were losing to Blizzard (Easy) in 3v3 games. Watching the latest Battle.net Championship replays has given us new ideas, and so we play a much more aggressive early game as you can see.

I beat AMAI 2.41 in a 2v2 on my first try, and the only other (that's right, ONE OTHER) time I had played AMAI was with an earlier version in a 1 on 1 which I lost.

All of this is irrelevant however, because it boils down to the following:

My GF and brother beat AMAI 2 on 2 every time. Against Blizzard, they lose.

Nothing more matters to me, all that matters is that in team games AMAI is inferior, deeply inferior. I don't care how well it works elsewhere, and will do my best to help the team improve its team play. I don't care why they lose, so unless WC3 has tactics which work really well against veterans but collapse against newbies (which I doubt), then something is wrong with the way it is playing, even if it is simply down to its targetting preference.

Humans can order allies around in battle, but the AI side doesn't, and it really shows. Blizzard is better co-ordinated as a team for the most part. AMAI is too individual, and while this may work really well in 1v1, it doesn't in team play because teams don't play like that, they act with a single personality, a single strategy, not several, one for each player.

AMAI can target heroes more, but it was toned down in earlier versions.

I'm sure I could sit back and let the AI develop its base, but then that rather defeats the point of my playing the AI. I will play to the best of my abilities to beat the AI, and currently I find, in a team game (humans vs AI) that a greater challenge will be found fighting Blizzard. That's all that matters to me, nothing else.

My GF, brother and I are not very good players. Her average APM is 15, mine is 27 and my brothers is 37. We're slow, we don't know what counters what, bar ranged units take out air, and we tend to stick to the familiar because we haven't even mastered that yet. However, in a team game we do one thing much better than the AI... we act as a team. I take over the role as leader and we move together and fight together and it is for that reason, and that reason alone, that we can beat the AI. If AMAIs team co-ordination cannot be improved, then I guess it's a choice of good at 1v1 or good at teams, but I get the feeling it CAN be improved.

The AI should be beating us, but it isn't. Hell, just watching one replay is enough to see it isn't playing a very good team game, just look at the distance between their armies, look at the lack of a co-ordinated defence when we attack, just look at the way one army runs but the other two stay on against the odds to fight. It's quite obvious that can be improved and so long as the AMAI site doesn't carry a disclaimer reading "Only for us in 1v1" then I will fight to get better teamplay from the AI :)
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowstrike
If in the future amai that the every profile could gather experience from time to time and then they could also memorize human player strategies hehe!
I did think a lot about that when AMAI began to become more complex. Changing all the different values with a genetic algorithm. But unfortunately there is one problem with that: outside of Single Player there is no way to memorize stuff and using Gamecache in Single Player will not allow it to be passed on to other people.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:50 PM   #20
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Got back to playing AMAI again in team games. After taking an initial beating we got our act together. I think AMAIs losses are almost entirely down to the fact that, as a team, it doesn't keep its armies together. Me, my GF and brother may creep alone now and then, but always close to home, and then we move together. AMAI will allow its armies to roam the map by themselves... it makes for easy kills. The three of us descend on the first army we run across, and that then means that either:

a) One AMAI no longer has a TP scroll.

b) One AMAI no longer has a hero.

Either way, it means we can now push into one of their bases without too much worry knowing that either they won't have as many troops as us, or they won't have as many players. Either way, it's a win for us.

AMAI needs to stop its armies moving around on their own little missions. It needs to stop launching attacks with two armies while the third one plays catch up. It needs to learn to keep all its armies together when moving about the field, or it needs to learn how to launch draw the enemies to it by launching an attack on one base with two armies, then launching a real attack on another base with a third (obviously working from my 3v3 experience here :)).

Right now, AMAI can be taken piecemeal. Even when it utterly outplayed us, we still won because when it came to delivering the killer blow, only two armies turned up, and the third one entered the battle when one of the original two was dead.
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitch
Got back to playing AMAI again in team games. After taking an initial beating we got our act together. I think AMAIs losses are almost entirely down to the fact that, as a team, it doesn't keep its armies together. Me, my GF and brother may creep alone now and then, but always close to home, and then we move together. AMAI will allow its armies to roam the map by themselves... it makes for easy kills. The three of us descend on the first army we run across, and that then means that either:

a) One AMAI no longer has a TP scroll.

b) One AMAI no longer has a hero.

Either way, it means we can now push into one of their bases without too much worry knowing that either they won't have as many troops as us, or they won't have as many players. Either way, it's a win for us.

AMAI needs to stop its armies moving around on their own little missions. It needs to stop launching attacks with two armies while the third one plays catch up. It needs to learn to keep all its armies together when moving about the field, or it needs to learn how to launch draw the enemies to it by launching an attack on one base with two armies, then launching a real attack on another base with a third (obviously working from my 3v3 experience here :)).

Right now, AMAI can be taken piecemeal. Even when it utterly outplayed us, we still won because when it came to delivering the killer blow, only two armies turned up, and the third one entered the battle when one of the original two was dead.

I am sorry is this post today? Or is it l sometime ago? I am confused... -_-

Anyway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitch
a) One AMAI no longer has a TP scroll.

Item sharing system. I am working on it and would post it when I finish so that Zalamander and AIAndy could consider applying it. Maybe future versions of AMAI, I think ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitch
b) One AMAI no longer has a hero.

I remembered some people requested this function. Maybe it helps allied heroes to level up faster... could make some AI players (like aggresso) use this strat and some (like chickn3n) not (that is not going out creeping until they got a hero)

Team coordination:
Maybe AMAI could have a global variable (movement signal) that very AMAI player checks and force them (or make them higher probabiltiy to) attack and retreat together, and stop other AMAI players from TPing to the battlefield when it is set to retreat. It also reset any allied AI rushing to the battle back to creeping.

Baiting enemies with one AI on one base and attack with other AI on other bases can also be done with this movement signal. It is a bit like attacking 2 bases with 2 AI players; I don't know whether this strat is better than attack 1 base with one combine force. Maybe it is necessary sometimes ^_^
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:02 PM   #22
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A small improvement would be to stop AMAI dropping when its team mates are still alive and kicking. In a team game you don't drop, you buy your team mates every second you can, even if it's with a haunted gold mine getting in the enemies way.

On the other hand, there was an irritating hunt for blue, who wouldn't surrender with only a Zepplin and a Grunt left. He left it flying over some trees in the middle of no where.
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