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Old 03-29-2009, 09:44 AM   #1
TheLastHorseman
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Idea 1

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Last edited by TheLastHorseman : 08-29-2009 at 02:42 PM. Reason: To change some spelling problems, to remove something + to add something
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Old 03-29-2009, 07:17 PM   #2
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Just at a first glance, don't you mean "AoS" style map? What's an EoS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastHorseman
... I intend to add 140 custom heroes + some 10 of DotA's best heroes (will remake some abilities) ...
140 custom heroes? You do know how much work that is right? And you probably want to remove the DotA part, it doesn't really make your map more attractable imo. I would test this, but just wanted to get some things clear first.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:35 PM   #3
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Default Thanks to my matey!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anopob
140 custom heroes? You do know how much work that is right? And you probably want to remove the DotA part, it doesn't really make your map more attractable imo.

Thanks for the tips and the showing me a spelling mistake. By the way, I intend to add 140+ heroes over time.

Also I have most of the heroes planned already, wrote lots of ideas and stories down. I also planned a logical AI but requires some work + don't expect anything, I only plan to add things I can, so if I can add the heroes and AI, I will.
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Old 03-30-2009, 03:58 PM   #4
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Here's another good tip: You don't add more than 30 heroes.

Sure, 140 heroes sounds like the map would have literally thousands of possible match lineups, but that does not really add much at all.

Do you really think you can balance 140 heroes? Balancing is a hard job, and Blizzard even has workers whose entire job is to deal with numbers and balancing. They don't just randomly come up with 300 damage + 5 second stun abilities. They work.

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Old 04-01-2009, 08:44 AM   #5
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Idea -------

Quote:
Originally posted by FriendlyPsycho:

Here's another good tip: You don't add more than 30 heroes.

Sure, 140 heroes sounds like the map would have literally thousands of possible match lineups, but that does not really add much at all.

Do you really think you can balance 140 heroes? Balancing is a hard job, and Blizzard even has workers whose entire job is to deal with numbers and balancing. They don't just randomly come up with 300 damage + 5 second stun abilities. They work.

I have thought for an entire year (even went insane because I thought like a supercomputer on steroids) and written down all my ideas, there is a plan for everything I have written on this post and the map itself. I work.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:37 AM   #6
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Supercomputer + steroids = 140 heroes?

Just doesn't add up...

This is really just an impossible thing to do. I am giving you an advice, it is a very tedious thing to balance a map with over a hundred heroes. It will make you /wrists

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Old 04-01-2009, 02:53 PM   #7
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Idea I Know, but I must... try...

I'll try, but if it doesn't work I'll limit the heroes. Ideas are like statues: You first begin with a block that is larger than the final piece, then you chisel it down and make it fit into the right size... You can make something large into something small, but you can't make something that is small, larger again. I like to shatter the impossible.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:00 PM   #8
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I don't get your last metaphor, but why do you have the desire to have so many heroes? Is it so that it would make it stand out against other AoSes? If so, it is a bad idea. Not every hero will get used regularly, and although I do like a lot of replayability, the absurd amount of heroes in your map(70+ per team?) is just too much.

Quality > quantity

But I am not forcing you though, nothing is holding you back, I am just giving my 50 cents here.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:26 PM   #9
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Default I am bored with all of DotA's Heroes

Quantity + Quality: you can have them both... if you know how. I'll work an entire year and a half if I must on this map. 140+ seems like a lot... until you have played them all at least once, that happens faster than you think.
---
The metaphor means: Lets say you want to cut something out of paper and you are not exactly sure how big a piece it is that you must cut out, (lets say it is hard to measure) then it is better to have a paper that is too large than to have a paper that is too small. With other words: if I plan to add only 30 heroes and then change my mind over time, then it will be much harder to implement additional heroes since I initialy planned to add only 30. I want to add all the heroes into a single system, that means the system must be flexible enough to add additional heroes over time without having to change the entire system, that will be too much!
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastHorseman
...

The metaphor means: Lets say you want to cut something out of paper and you are not exactly sure how big a piece it is that you must cut out, (lets say it is hard to measure) then it is better to have a paper that is too large than to have a paper that is too small. With other words: if I plan to add only 30 heroes and then change my mind over time, then it will be much harder to implement additional heroes since I initialy planned to add only 30. I want to add all the heroes into a single system, that means the system must be flexible enough to add additional heroes over time without having to change the entire system, that will be too much!
I understand that but what kind of system would allow only X amount of heroes? It's kinda like the other version of your metaphor: perhaps you don't know how many pieces of paper you need, but do you really need 50 stacks of them? I'm just saying that you shouldn't say all these "super planned features" and narrow it up- you should balance it to what you are going to do first, then add up.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:06 PM   #11
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How many skills per hero? Oh, and, max hero level, max ability level, ultimates? Sub-ultimates? Innates?
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:43 AM   #12
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Seems cool but in a community that dislikes a large quantity of heroes you definitely need to back up all these things you've said. 140+ heroes is a giant amount, DotA doesn't even have this much and has a devastating lack of balance because of how items can turn any hero into a powerhouse.


You state you could make 140 hero ideas, there is bound to be some repetitive themes unless you have The Pillow Fighter or an entire spectrum of weird heroes. And if we assume that each hero has 4 skills and perhaps an innate, that would be a total of 700 skills. You think you and others could come up with 700 skills that don't have a giant resemblance with other skills?

I can definitely bet that there will be tons of copies and skills that do the same thing with different effects. Loads of fancy line damage that moves in pretty swirls. Before you set your goals to the whopping amount of 140+ heroes, INSTEAD, work on the basic amount, 10-20 or so. Work on some nice original skills and actually finish the map. You'll soon see how overwhelming it is and then decide if you can step up the plate and complete map.


I'd be glad to help any way I can with the few ways I can... Good Luck Anyways.

New Stuff


[edit; I saw the terrain and it is definitely not helping your current situation. Work on the terrain and completing the basic triggers. I really hated seeing all the seaweed doodad spam, it really was nasty. You also need a lot more tile variation and the waterfall on the naga side is very laggy and it will generate huge amounts of lag when the Trolls push or anything else.


I also saw the heroes. There was only one hero with one new edited skill, the Shadewalker and the tooltip was Scary Complicated. I saw it and there was an essay before me. One paragraph for description and another with an extremely hard to read and annoying formula explaining how the stats of the skills increase. I recommend dumbing it down for players. They'd have to do the math themselves which is just terrible for you and annoying for the player.


Good luck anyways but you've already got a generic hero and the Shadewalkers only skill is a 12 second stun. This is already looking bad for you but... If I'm correct, it read... For 12 seconds the target unit is rendered immobile? Very sad indeed and I thought you were looking to make quality...]


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Old 04-02-2009, 10:29 AM   #13
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Idea I get your point about too much heroes and other stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by Anopob
I understand that but what kind of system would allow only X amount of heroes? It's kinda like the other version of your metaphor: perhaps you don't know how many pieces of paper you need, but do you really need 50 stacks of them? I'm just saying that you shouldn't say all these "super planned features" and narrow it up- you should balance it to what you are going to do first, then add up.
Thanks, should just do a basic map and then release it to see what people think. The reason because my system will support only x amount of heroes is: I want to add and recreate all the same type of abilities and effects that get triggered alot and are buggy (like magic immunity and orb effects) but without having mass amounts of when unit is attacked triggers and also to have more control over spells (some spells in DotA goes through magic immune and others like orbs stack with other orbs in a weird way). I will have to add each heroes spells in a list each time I make one.
------
Quote:
Originally posted by Veev
How many skills per hero? Oh, and, max hero level, max ability level, ultimates? Sub-ultimates? Innates?
5 Skills per hero, Max hero level = 25, max normal ability level = 5, max ultimate level = 3, and some heroes will have a different system (like invoker can get ultimate at level 5 or 4 and has 7 levels per normal ability). One of my heroes wont even have a ultimate.
------
Quote:
Originally posted by Cherry-Soap
Seems cool but in a community that dislikes a large quantity of heroes you definitely need to back up all these things you've said. 140+ heroes is a giant amount, DotA doesn't even have this much and has a devastating lack of balance because of how items can turn any hero into a powerhouse.

You state you could make 140 hero ideas, there is bound to be some repetitive themes unless you have The Pillow Fighter or an entire spectrum of weird heroes. And if we assume that each hero has 4 skills and perhaps an innate, that would be a total of 700 skills. You think you and others could come up with 700 skills that don't have a giant resemblance with other skills?

I can definitely bet that there will be tons of copies and skills that do the same thing with different effects. Loads of fancy line damage that moves in pretty swirls. Before you set your goals to the whopping amount of 140+ heroes, INSTEAD, work on the basic amount, 10-20 or so. Work on some nice original skills and actually finish the map. You'll soon see how overwhelming it is and then decide if you can step up the plate and complete map.

I'd be glad to help any way I can with the few ways I can... Good Luck Anyways.
Thanks for the insanely long tip. The map in the link is the map I made a year ago, I have already changed a lot of things. The Swift Blade's ability is already changed, aswell as the description. (was kind of experimental, I will first make a description of how the skill works, then the background story) The Cunning blade now does: When activated the hero will have a buff (last 5 second), each time you right click ( not use the move command) he will teleport a short distance (250) in that direction, at level one he can teleport 3 times and at max he can teleport 8 times. He damages heroes between the teleport (depends on Agility) and at the point where he teleports he spins and deals damage again. After the buff runs out or the max teleports are reached he teleports back to the original casting point, also deals damage like teleport exept no spinning.

You will be surprised at how much ability ideas I have and they are not repititions. I don't like damage nukes, they are too linear. Strength heroes will be slow but powerfull and will have close range abilities and AoE stuns, Agility will be fast but fragile and can have close to ranged spells, Intelligence will have ranged and weak attacks, but nuke spells (not just damage). Some abilities will do physical damage (50% physical and 50% goes through armor).

Is it even legal to make a post this long?
Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated.
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