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Old 09-27-2008, 10:22 AM   #1
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Default Tried it, thoughts.

I got together 5 or 6 people for the first game we played. Only 4 had picked their hero by the time monsters started attacking. I was still in the middle of reading tooltips, and there are quite a few of those to read if you want to have any idea what's going on with your character.

Even amid the initial chaos we stayed alive for several minutes, then huge numbers of monsters started to come in from all sides. Even though we had a good formation with tanks in the front and casters in the back, there were so many monsters that it was impossible to prevent the casters from being killed. Not to mention that as a pally, I was being perma bashed and unable to cast anything half the time.

It difficult to heal allies since there were about 30 lifebars on the screen at any given time. A map released years ago, Molten Core, had portraits on the side to represent allies and it was possible to target spells through them. That would make healing much more manageable.

The paladin was not very fun since his autoattack was weak and he only had 1 attack skill (which I couldn't get, since I had to level up nothing but healing skills). He seems like a typical 'healbot' character design. The custom attribute system looks promising, if I had enough time to read the tooltips before being killed that is.

Overall it seems the balance needs work before it can be an enjoyable experience on b.net.
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:33 AM   #2
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I think its always best to play a game atleast twice before giving feedback. The first game is generally always learning & discovery.
The first game I played with friends, we got slaughtered. Then 2nd game we did much better & progressed alot further.

I agree thou, some characters do seem to have some weird / not so fun abilities such as the Paladin.
Some abilities tend to be pretty much the same / near identical, just work in a slightly different way. This becomes especially bad later on when you end up learning all the abilities & have e.g. a split shot or a multi shot (Boring).

A small skill reshuffle/make over could go along way.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:57 PM   #3
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A map released years ago, Molten Core, had portraits on the side to represent allies and it was possible to target spells through them. That would make healing much more manageable.

QFT, tbh. I had that in several of my maps too; just give advanced unit control over the players from each player, but not actual unit control.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:21 PM   #4
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Ooh... Hey, you know, that's actually a nice idea. The problem is that it won't work very well with a full house of 10 players. (You can't see them all) Is there any known work-around to that to get all of them to show? If there is, I'd totally do it, I like that a lot. I could always just add those icons to the pally's interface only if they drop under 50% life, what are your thoughts on that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grim001
I got together 5 or 6 people for the first game we played. Only 4 had picked their hero by the time monsters started attacking. I was still in the middle of reading tooltips, and there are quite a few of those to read if you want to have any idea what's going on with your character.
I do it this way because it's very difficult to know what the current status of the team is. If I wait for everyone to pick before starting the timer to start the level, someone might be a dick and keep everyone from playing. If I do that, but have some 2 minute timer, people are still forced to wait that whole time frame with lamers. Right now I just start the timer 60s after the first player has selected a hero, which I thought gave moderate time to read tooltips. (Dude, they're maybe two lines long tops!)

Suggestions as to which method you think would be best are appreciated. Personally, I think moving to a "2 minute timer limit with game starting 30s after last hero is selected" may work the best. That way if there's an idiot, you'll still get to play in a reasonable amount of time, but if everyone knows what they want and picks right away it starts post-haste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grim001
The paladin was not very fun since his autoattack was weak and he only had 1 attack skill (which I couldn't get, since I had to level up nothing but healing skills). He seems like a typical 'healbot' character design.
Maybe it's just me, but I find the paladin quite fun. He is a healbot, that's his role. His 'attack skill' is actually being removed for an assortment of reasons. Maybe being a healer just isn't your cup of tea -- It's one of the funnest things for me to do in the game, though! Try some of the other heroes, hopefully one of those will capture your fancy.

Also consider that a lot of the gameplay is derived from how hero classes interact with the bosses. Sometimes, you want that AOE nuke for the hero, whereas other times single target elimination is prime. Maybe healing is the only reason you're even surviving the boss with his high DPS, or maybe those summons are really forming the blunt of your defenses! All classes have levels in which they shine, but they're all useful in all levels. I like the paladin because I'm a damned good healer, so people always thank me when I save their arses. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim001
Overall it seems the balance needs work before it can be an enjoyable experience on b.net.
I honestly don't ever expect it to be popular on BNet. I'm going out of my way to make it as challenging as possible while still being possible, most of the public BNet can't handle that. Who knows, though, maybe there is a niche for this kind of map somewhere. Right now, it's just something I've always wanted to make!

Thanks for the feedback. <3
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
I do it this way because it's very difficult to know what the current status of the team is. If I wait for everyone to pick before starting the timer to start the level, someone might be a dick and keep everyone from playing. If I do that, but have some 2 minute timer, people are still forced to wait that whole time frame with lamers. Right now I just start the timer 60s after the first player has selected a hero, which I thought gave moderate time to read tooltips. (Dude, they're maybe two lines long tops!)
Perhaps you could create a timerdialog for the map the start?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
I honestly don't ever expect it to be popular on BNet. I'm going out of my way to make it as challenging as possible while still being possible, most of the public BNet can't handle that. Who knows, though, maybe there is a niche for this kind of map somewhere. Right now, it's just something I've always wanted to make!
I can never get a full house (ppl need to start trying out new maps other than dota ><) and people seem to hate on the map once it gets to a point where it actually takes effort...

People need to appreciate these kind of maps more. I'm tired of seeing maps like Island Defence, Dota, and Footmen Frenzy dominating the list on custom games.
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:17 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Ooh... Hey, you know, that's actually a nice idea. The problem is that it won't work very well with a full house of 10 players. (You can't see them all) Is there any known work-around to that to get all of them to show? If there is, I'd totally do it, I like that a lot. I could always just add those icons to the pally's interface only if they drop under 50% life, what are your thoughts on that?
Make it show the 4 lowest health heros only. Would take a bit more code, but it would be worth it in the end. I would also make the health and mana bars update with the actual hero it is supposed to represent.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:18 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ammorth
Make it show the 4 lowest health heros only. Would take a bit more code, but it would be worth it in the end. I would also make the health and mana bars update with the actual hero it is supposed to represent.
It would update life/mana automatically, but showing the 4 lowest life heroes would indeed be the most beneficial solution. Thanks.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:29 PM   #8
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How many heroes can be showed at left side max??


Maybe put all heroes with 40% or less to display at left side for everyone?


Well if it's full, start to heal them up!!

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Blunt suggestion:
What if you add difficulty settings :P

Noob (current settings)
Easy (25% more hp and damage of enemy creeps, +30% xp gain rate and random items)
Normal (50% more hp and damage of enemy creeps, +60% xp gain rate and random items)
Hard (75% more hp and damage of enemy creeps, +90% xp gain rate and random items)
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Old 09-28-2008, 07:57 PM   #9
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I think difficulty settings would ruin the map. No one on bnet would want a bigger challenge than what Dusk has made already.
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:39 PM   #10
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I think by paying attention to the left-sided hero portraits that change permanently would be even more chaotic. I would probably often heal false ones as they can refresh themselves with normal regeneration and potion, berserker and hunter also have their abilities and there might be another paladin. But more importantly, healing everytime a hero is down is not very efficient because it depends on the situation: they may go down right after again or saving or using the spell at another point may be more useful. So anyway, i have to be aware of the battle (not only for healing). I could only think of it as an alarm display to show that there is somebody on low hitpoints. Despite, actually, I had not any problems to see through the situation in the past playing paladin and I did this not only a few times and even with public full house and additional skeletons from necromancers, if the players do not spread out too much that is. By the way, we (me and a friend) have played the map maybe like 25 times in open battle.net and got several times to level 5 (0.10p). Well, we had to explain everything over and over but most of the people were astonishingly listening when we kept annoying them a bit part has liked the map, too, and joined remakes.

As another low hitpoint indicator I would propose that the affected ones change there vertex coloring continually between normal and a slight red like an alarm siren (could be only visible for healer or be set on/off as option).

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Old 10-01-2008, 02:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Maybe it's just me, but I find the paladin quite fun. He is a healbot, that's his role.

I don't mind the concept of a healbot, but IMO the Paladin should not be a healbot. He is a hybrid between a warrior and a healer, and thus should be able to do both effectively at the same time, albeit both to a lesser degree than non-hybrids. World of Warcraft had healbot Paladins, and it caused massive discontent in the playerbase.

Personally I would add a new class, the Priest, to play the role of healbot. The priest should have a mid-strength heal with low cooldown, a strong single-target HOT, a shield that prevents all damage until X amount of life is blocked, and for his ultimate, a powerful chanelling AoE that resurrects the dead within range and applies a HOT to everyone (a combination of rez and the channeled HOT that the Paladin currently has).

For the Paladin, I would keep the powerful single-target heal (with increased power and cooldown), and the % damage reduction shield (with increased duration). Then I would add a powerful strike with moderate-low cooldown that smites an enemy while healing nearby allies for the same amount. For the Paladin's ultimate, it would of course be Divine Shield. Divine Shield can have so many tactical implications in a game with scripted boss fights that it alone would probably create a unique role for the Paladin.

Also, having two healing classes tends to double the number of healers playing in each game. That way you don't need several people playing Paladins just to bring enough healing to win.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:00 AM   #12
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I tried out the map as well with just a small group, and I want to voice that I had a similar problem. The map just began too quickly, and I was dead before I knew what was going on.

I understand that you want to stop "some idiot" from ruining the experience for everyone, and that a 2 minute timer before starting every game isn't acceptable (and I agree)!

My solution on a similar map is to force players to enter the "game" area when they are ready. Maybe, after you select a hero, your hero can be put into an area where you select skills and read tooltips, and then start the game when you're ready. Once the first player walks from the waiting area to the ready area, I'd start the game within whatever time you think is appropriate (maybe even 30 seconds!).

This solution works because expert teams can pick their heroes and leave the waiting area immediately, ready to start the game. Beginning teams or beginning players can safely read and choose skills without pressure or fear of death.

Good luck, I'm going to try this map again next time I have more friends online/available!
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:19 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Ooh... Hey, you know, that's actually a nice idea. The problem is that it won't work very well with a full house of 10 players. (You can't see them all) Is there any known work-around to that to get all of them to show?
Yeah, you can, by making it an up-to seven player map. ;)
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:24 PM   #14
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Yeah, you can, by making it an up-to seven player map. ;)
Dang! Oh well, guess it'll just be the 7 lowest life heroes. That control thing does show up to 7 heroes right? I could always test, but I won't be able to until the weekend, so I may as well ask.



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Originally Posted by grim001
I don't mind the concept of a healbot, but IMO the Paladin should not be a healbot. He is a hybrid between a warrior and a healer, and thus should be able to do both effectively at the same time, albeit both to a lesser degree than non-hybrids. World of Warcraft had healbot Paladins, and it caused massive discontent in the playerbase.
Similarly, people may be angry that I made a "berserker" into a tank and not a battle frenzied maniac. You might consider that I chose all of these roles for very specific and playstyle-balancing reasons. Just because some people are used to the Paladin having attack skills (a la Diablo 2), doesn't mean that he has to for every game or every map ever made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim001
Personally I would add a new class, the Priest, to play the role of healbot. The priest should have a mid-strength heal with low cooldown, a strong single-target HOT, a shield that prevents all damage until X amount of life is blocked, and for his ultimate, a powerful chanelling AoE that resurrects the dead within range and applies a HOT to everyone (a combination of rez and the channeled HOT that the Paladin currently has).
Eh, but that's lame. You need to realize that a lot of design went into focusing all of the necessary roles into a condensed, 6-class system. Any more classes would totally fracture all of that design and forethought. I'd be happy to elaborate on my design paradigms, or you could take it on faith that I had a lot of reasons for making the paladin as he is and that he isn't intended to be the attacker-type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grim001
Also, having two healing classes tends to double the number of healers playing in each game. That way you don't need several people playing Paladins just to bring enough healing to win.
That really isn't a problem, I'd say. Besides, back-to-back pally Radiance AOE healing is awesome cool, you get really into it! (Or at least I do)



@ aaero

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaero
I tried out the map as well with just a small group, and I want to voice that I had a similar problem. The map just began too quickly, and I was dead before I knew what was going on.

I understand that you want to stop "some idiot" from ruining the experience for everyone, and that a 2 minute timer before starting every game isn't acceptable (and I agree)!

My solution on a similar map is to force players to enter the "game" area when they are ready. Maybe, after you select a hero, your hero can be put into an area where you select skills and read tooltips, and then start the game when you're ready. Once the first player walks from the waiting area to the ready area, I'd start the game within whatever time you think is appropriate (maybe even 30 seconds!).

This solution works because expert teams can pick their heroes and leave the waiting area immediately, ready to start the game. Beginning teams or beginning players can safely read and choose skills without pressure or fear of death.
That solution kills the ambiance, though. I want a smooth transition from hero selection to the first level, not something where you have to "be ready" or go into some zone or click some button telling the world that you're "good to go." Atmosphere being maintained is key to the design of a game start style.

Thanks for trying it, I appreciate the feedback and will give it some serious thought when I work through the design for the game's start.


Felt like not posting a wall of text and just hiding it in those tags, so rawr.
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Old 10-01-2008, 06:46 PM   #15
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For some reason my post from 09-29-2008 07:39 PM was not saved proberly. It is only visible for me. Guests and other members cannot see it.

Quote:
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I think by paying attention to the left-sided hero portraits that change permanently would be even more chaotic. I would probably often heal false ones as they can refresh themselves with normal regeneration and potion, berserker and hunter also have their abilities and there might be another paladin. But more importantly, healing everytime a hero is down is not very efficient because it depends on the situation: they may go down right after again or saving or using the spell at another point may be more useful. So anyway, i have to be aware of the battle (not only for healing). I could only think of it as an alarm display to show that there is somebody on low hitpoints. Despite, actually, I had not any problems to see through the situation in the past playing paladin and I did this not only a few times and even with public full house and additional skeletons from necromancers, if the players do not spread out too much that is. By the way, we (me and a friend) have played the map maybe like 25 times in open battle.net and got several times to level 5 (0.10p). Well, we had to explain everything over and over but most of the people were astonishingly listening when we kept annoying them a bit part has liked the map, too, and joined remakes.

As another low hitpoint indicator I would propose that the affected ones change there vertex coloring continually between normal and a slight red like an alarm siren (could be only visible for healer or be set on/off as option).
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