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Old 02-02-2009, 12:17 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
We need a baseline.
Sure, we've got lots of options... But how can we justify one over the other? Do a vote? I don't know.. This is what I've been fighting with for awhile.

Easy. We make a fictitious AoS with hypothetical systems and that gives people a framework to build around without the problems of running a contest based around a real map.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:22 PM   #152
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That also gives them no heroes with which to use as the judging baseline for what is 'good' or 'bad' as a hero for that AoS. Woops. :<
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
While it may strike everyone as monotonous by now, most of the users here have at least a cursory knowledge of wc3 melee, making it the most likely baseline for any such contest.
Duh! You don't think we know that already, do you? We've only held 3 hero contests in the melee environment for that exact reason. We want to try something else for #4, though. That's the whole reason this discussion exists at all.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:33 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk
Duh! You don't think we know that already, do you? We've only held 3 hero contests in the melee environment for that exact reason. We want to try something else for #4, though. That's the whole reason this discussion exists at all.
I know that is known; just stating the support.
Also, I think it's important that "Hero Contest #4 = AoS" not be a foregone conclusion (whether or not it's right).

~~~
In the event that it's already been decided... Well, I would most likely (unfortunately) put my 'vote' towards DotA. It's easily the most well-known, and, well, it can't be hard to make something better than what they have. The only problem I see is that there are just so many heroes in DotA, we would be left with little to make (i.e. if you'd made your skeletal ranger in such a contest, it would've been seen as a clinkz-rip off (before testing, of course)).

I'd like to think something else, like Land of Legends, AotZ, ToB, or DoE would be much better... But then again, not everyone has played them.
So do we make everyone play them? Not necessarily a bad thing... :P
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:58 PM   #154
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Somehow a hero with critical strike, bash, vampiric aura, and reincarnation just doesn't interest me in terms of designing a hero... Nor does a hero with like 30 skills where there's still an obvious 'best' choice. Two ends of the spectrum, and I don't like either.

DotA heroes don't offer enough of a design space to work inside of. DotA also has a very undefined aesthetic for its heroes - it has what, one custom texture? Two if you include that white caped blood mage? I mean really, may as well judge the art against Blizz stuff. That's not very exciting.

If we're going to do an AoS contest, DotA is out by sheer virtue that it's too close to melee in terms of what the heroes are and how they play. I think ToB is too stylized in its own way, and hell if anyone but Cassiel or Erwt can make a good hero for it. DoE is interesting in the dynamics it offers for hero developers, but I don't think anyone would be interested. AotZ is pretty classy and so forth, probably one of the better known AoS maps around this site, it might work.

*Shrugs* Got me. Let's wait for more feedback.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:22 PM   #155
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w/o an intimate understanding of the map, it would be hard to design a hero for it - a problem I think many would come accross in such a case...
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:13 PM   #156
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we just deprotect some random aos
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Old 02-02-2009, 05:01 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk
DoE is interesting in the dynamics it offers for hero developers, but I don't think anyone would be interested. AotZ is pretty classy and so forth, probably one of the better known AoS maps around this site, it might work.
That's another thing. As much as I love them, your two games (especially DoE, though I may be wrong) involve a complex systems of buffs (I think that's the one with the "bleeding" and others). Making a hero for that would require, in most cases, utilizing this in-built system of buffs, and (of course) JASS or higher. Unless you want people making heroes made to fit in your maps out of GUI. xD
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Old 02-02-2009, 05:10 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
As much as I love them, your two games (especially DoE, though I may be wrong) involve a complex systems of buffs
You should probably play AotZ before claiming that it uses conditions. Only DoE does use them, in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
Making a hero for that would require, in most cases, utilizing this in-built system of buffs,
Thank God for that, otherwise designing heroes for it might be just like every other AoS in existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
(of course) JASS or higher
Not true. The system I've made is easily used in GUI as well. Silly boy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
Unless you want people making heroes made to fit in your maps out of GUI. xD
You're doing it wrong. It's not about making heroes for someone's map. It's about making heroes such that they would fit in that map and can then have that map's baseline be used as the zero-level by which the judging starts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexorian
we just deprotect some random aos
Oh God...
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:42 PM   #159
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Well... Why in the hell are we talking about what AoS we are gonna do.
I say if there _were_ going to be an AoS hero contest, it's better if the site provided specific standards, or even better a test map with systems of what the hero is suppose to be designed for.

Well the point is that.
* AotZ, every hero is good if you know how to use them
* DoE, taking advantage of your buffs you can place (I haven't played neither in ages)
* DotA, right items and right hero equals imba
* ToB... I haven't really played this one

The fact that if you are gonna do an AoS contest, provide us with a map/standard of how is our hero gonna function

Note: I think I repeated myself a few times, bleh.

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Old 02-02-2009, 09:59 PM
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:01 PM   #160
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Actually... I like that idea, BnB ftw
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:07 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av3n
I say if there _were_ going to be an AoS hero contest, it's better if the site provided specific standards, or even better a test map with systems of what the hero is suppose to be designed for.
Of course, all of those things would be provided. We're talking about the baseline around which the judges can even rate the heroes. In order to rate a hero objectively, you need a baseline - or set of heroes to use as examples - in order to work from. Unless we use an already-existing AoS map, we simply won't have that.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:50 PM   #162
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I would have to disagree on using an existing AoS as a baseline.

For one, the person who made the AoS and/or the heroes in the AoS have the best chance of winning because they already have the imaginary format for basing heroes laid out for them, while someone like me who doesn't particularly play that AoS would have little to no experience on how get this format. People play maps off of experience, too.

This is what I'm worried about: The people who have had the time to get to the know the AoS or have some significant background for the AoS versus those on the other side of the spectrum with little to no experience playing around with the functions of that AoS or no have never even touched the AoS before.

If you guys are aiming for a baseline, it's better to get an even playing field.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:06 AM   #163
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I think a bare shell of an AoS would need to be created. Basically, every contestant/s is provided with a list of options. One would be a support caster - another a tank - another a supporting agility, for instance. Another general framework could be provided for synergy, I know that's general but I think you could pull it off. And then theme, race, and the rest could be made by the team / contestant. The judges would then take the theme, role of the character, and execution of these aspects into account when judging. I think with some ingenuity and hard work by a group of coordinators, it would be perfectly possible.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:17 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgnitedStar
For one, the person who made the AoS and/or the heroes in the AoS have the best chance of winning because they already have the imaginary format for basing heroes laid out for them, while someone like me who doesn't particularly play that AoS would have little to no experience on how get this format. People play maps off of experience, too.

This is what I'm worried about: The people who have had the time to get to the know the AoS or have some significant background for the AoS versus those on the other side of the spectrum with little to no experience playing around with the functions of that AoS or no have never even touched the AoS before.

If you guys are aiming for a baseline, it's better to get an even playing field.
Technically, all of these arguments could've been used against us ever having a melee contest too. I don't play melee for crap, but I can use the current heroes as an example to suggest how I should create them. The same applies to any other map genre or style, really.

And Zerz, really, we can't give people a shell of a map. My whole point is that there need to be heroes already to play around with in-game to see what kind of style we should be attempting to create. I know for a fact that none of us have the time to create a full AoS specifically for use as a contest template; that's ridiculous.

People need examples for heroes.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:52 AM   #165
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Good point. I'm still in favor of the idea, though it's true finding a suitable way to do it would be very difficult.
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