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Old 12-19-2006, 12:13 AM   #46
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Thanks for the quick response.

Ahh, I'm afraid this map is quite influenced by Age of Empires, (since I played it a lot a while ago), and now I can understand the issues you brought up.

I won't try to make a useless argument (I'd lose badly in any argument against you all) but here's all I have to say. I have always wanted the map to be 'different' than melee, in a realistic / age of empires sort of way, as you can probably see by the rock-paper-scissors-like balancing (especially with siege vs. buildings compared to units vs. buildings). Many of the issues brought up suggest changing the map into more Warcraft-Melee-like, which had not and is not the path I wish to take the map on.

If that means I won't get an approval at Wc3c, then so be it , since I enjoy the "realistic"-gameplay as it is: a distinct variation of melee.
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:41 PM   #47
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Maybe try to limit the affectation of this "indistinguishableness" (This word is in the dictionary :P) by a certain percentage so both sides are winners.

But as a AoE style-map, you can hardly change those units to something else...
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:09 PM   #48
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Yeah, I will definitely make them more different, but making them as different as warcraft-melee would be impossible.
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Old 12-24-2006, 09:51 PM   #49
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Small Update (updated in first post)

Update v0.41
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- Starting gold raised to 1000 from 600
- Initial floating text time increased
- Credits section of Map Information updated & improved
- Fog added in the Valley area (cosmetic improvement)
- Camera Blackness glitch fixed
- Siege now deals 25% damage to Mechanical armor
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Old 12-26-2006, 08:23 PM   #50
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Sigh, more huge tests to see what happens. Bah. Oh well, some guys I know are setting up a big LAN dealy, maybe I can convince them to play this.

Don't hold your breath waiting an acceptance, this really should have been accepted months ago.
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Old 12-27-2006, 02:12 AM   #51
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If any of the testers need people to test with, let me know.
Due to my role in testing this map (although somewhat small) I am abstaining from writing a review, but I will aid anyone in testing the map.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:18 PM   #52
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Good map, but serious flaws in the gameplay.

Defensive stuff is just too powerful. Without an army of those weedy little things you call 'trebuchets' (look more like catapults to me, though I'm not sure of the technical definition), you can't breach even modest defences. Strongholds can, and did, defeat whole armies (50 troops), most of top notch and upgraded well, as well as a trebuchet if I remember correctly, with only a few troops supporting.

Towers can't be taken out by anything apart from siege, of which 'trebuchets' are the only ones that can work well against them at range. For attacking most bases, battering rams are just hopeless, as they block it up and die fast. The trebuchets have a short range, often making them impracticle for attacking towers due to the terrain. I had 25 top notch troops, well upgraded (taking up a massive level of food), led by a living legend. They went around the walls through the gap my trebuchet had managed to make (limited range and a lack of unlimited patience made it hard to destroy much more, and impossible to destroy more than a few of their towers). So, a few less upgraded troops and 5 towers against as powerful an army as I could realistically field.

I didn't even get the tower I focused on (after taking out the few infantry) down to below 50%.

Oh, and you could start building a town centre, but not finish it.

PS: Olof's trebuchet model is one of the best models I've ever seen. No custom skin, too, so fairly small in size.
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Old 12-30-2006, 07:04 AM   #53
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That reminds me of Age Of Empires II... Without trebuchets, you couldn't do nothin against some walls backed by fortresses...

I also find it odd that Captain Griffen mentioned trebuchets were short ranged? Now, maybe Sacreligious isn't going for historical accuracy... But trebuchets were giant catapult/slingshots, capable of launching things a reeeeeealy long distance. Perhaps you need to rename them catapaults, which were known for closer ranged sieiging.
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:34 AM   #54
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Trebuchets weren't that long range. In fact, a good English bowman could have a longer range, which made it a wee little bit dangerous for the operators.

In reality, though, once a breach in the walls were made, troops could go through and take towers from the inside. They didn't have to physically destroy the towers and walls - just had to get inside.
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Old 12-30-2006, 01:33 PM   #55
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My point exactly... Trebuchets were comparably long distance and were designed for breaching heavy defenses.
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Old 12-30-2006, 04:21 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Captain Griffen
In reality, though, once a breach in the walls were made, troops could go through and take towers from the inside. They didn't have to physically destroy the towers and walls - just had to get inside.

good point, Sacreligious should find a way to implement that... Like to make a tower attack you have to get a soldier in, and that soldier could die from various archers or other missiles, not necesarily units getting in the tower and killing the soldier.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:30 AM   #57
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Very good points, I'm not sure how I would implement it without forcing unnecessary micro-managment though. I may increase the damage of swords on towers though. I'll check out that skin (thanks Capt. for the tip) for the trebuchet.

I think the range is long enough considering it hurls "huge" projectiles that deal splash damage if you research its upgrade. I plan to increase the power of the attacks though to punish people who just sit and fortify themselves.

Battering Rams excel in more open areas, rather than closed ones, since their power is unmatched in siege. If you try to use them in closed areas, getting stuck is expected.

However I plan to rework the damage tables and siege in order to make them dominate fortifications as they would in real life.

Just curious though did any of you happen to save the replay? I would really like to see the in-game experience backing up your comments so I can make more appropriate changes.

P.S. I'll also fix the Town Center bug.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:11 AM   #58
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I didn't deliberately save it, but you're in luck. That's the last game I played.

Problem is, some places you can't attack. Top left for example. Trebuchets can only just reach the outer most parts, and it's too narrow for battering rams.

I also don't feel that getting gold from killing units is a good idea, especially when combined with powerful defences, as it encourages turtling rather than aggressive play. The loss of your own units is a big enough loss, without bolstering the enemy.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:59 PM   #59
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Hmm, that is another excellent point. I have never thought of it that way, and this is probably the best suggestion I've gotten for a while. I think I will make units have no bounty, but buildings still have bounty, since that actually encourages attacking.

Wow, thanks. :)
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Old 01-01-2007, 05:43 PM   #60
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Update v0.42
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- Petard damage to structures increased
- Siege Ram hit points increased greatly
- Infantry attack type percentage fixed
- Trebuchet move speed increased
- Trebuchet ignition (upgrade) buffed
- Trebuchet armor increased
- War Machine armor increased slightly
- War Machine cooldown lowered
- Town Center building bug fixed
- Credits updated with Tim., Captain Griffen, Chuckle_Brother, and Anitarf
- ALL Units no longer give bounty, however buildings still do
- Name changed to Abyssium - Epic War
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