(12) Abyssium [Pre-1.24]

[Captain Griffen]

Coke-points work both ways. They also make it difficult to sally. Someone hiding behind a choke point with massed forces? I smell siege weaponry time...

[Sacreligious]

@SlickR: Try using some trebuchets, just make sure they are protected by Centurions or something that can take a beating.

I'm just wondering, I'm not sure what else to update since only Tim seemed to have reviewed the map in detail.

[LilSniper]

This map reminds me of the good ol' days of Age of Empires. I assume many of the ideas were inspired from that game.

Pros:
- Highly balanced counter-class system.
- Quite realistic buildings, units, and functions.
- Each unit has unique abilities that are distinct to that class.
- Terrain is quite detailed. Each environment type has its own special characteristics.

Cons:
- Not friendly to inexperienced players. This could be argued both ways but that is just my opinion.
- "Turtle-ing up" inhibits fast pace action in the game.

Suggestion:
Alliance system has one major flaw. People ally each other and don't realize that an opposing player did not return the favor. This gives the other player the advantage of hearing team chat and having vision. I propose: One player offers an alliance. This offer expires after X seconds or until the other player accepts. Also possibly have a text command that displays the players that you are allied to.

Very creditable map. I am not too fond of altered melees, but the one aspect that caught my eye was the terrain. Nice job.

[Sacreligious]

Thanks the suggestions LilSniper. Haha yeah, I guess there's some things that seem similar to Age of Empires.

I am not sure what you mean by "not friendly to inexperienced players." This is an altered melee map, which means that its gameplay runs parallel to melee, which is the Warcraft everyone knows and bought the game for. Secondly, the passive income helps players who are not used to setting up gold mines and a stable economy, though it cannot be relied upon unless in the Income Only mode.

While playing this map many times, I have not met a player who was confused on what to do, despite the varying skill levels of the players.
--> The only thing that varies greatly from melee is placing your start location; however, it can be easily relocated with no harm done.

Secondly, the idea of "turtling up" can be countered by siege weapons, which can take down even the most impervious seeming fortifications. I see your point though, but just know that defending is meant to be a part of the game (much more than it is in melee, which is heavily influenced by how well you can attack).

Lastly, the alliance system is designed that way. People in many alliance games, for example the much-played Risk Revolution, tend to create alliances with as many people as they can. This is looked down upon as it makes the game very unfair for those outside of the alliance.

Abyssium's alliance system is designed to counter those types of people. If you ally someone, you should have a good reason that they will ally you back. If you ally for the idea of being safe, you end up giving your vision to everyone instead.

This encourages you to think carefully before you ally, and additionally reinforces the alliance once it is made. It also makes backstabbing someone all the more dramatic

Once again, thanks for the comments, you are the second person to give a long review (after Tim.)

[LilSniper]

I'm not so sure if I agree entirely with you on the counter to turtling-up as the siege can be destroyed with a few knights stationed in front.

Either way, I can easily see that a lot of effort has been put into the creation of this map. I believe it deserves to make it in.

[Tim.]

For the surplus issue, have you tried playing with the Upkeep settings? That way once a player starts to get far too much gold/lumber built up they get heavily taxed. This way gold income can go quickly in the begining, but then stagnates based on your gold/food/lumber ammounts.

[Sacreligious]

Yes, Abyssium has had a custom upkeep system since its creation.

[Jacek]

Why make "enhanced melee" maps if no one here plays melee so they have nothing to compare to... ??

[Daxtreme]

That's the opposite.

If you have nothing to compare it with, it means it is the first map like that, thus meaning that it is new and original. If you have something to compare it with, it means it is not the first of its genre, thus reducing originality.

And this isn't "Enhanced melee" imo, it is more like a nice custom map featuring skills and abilities to really administer a base or the such.

[Sacreligious]

The map is "not" melee, it is "melee-like" as I said in the first post. I created it because I wanted a game where you built up a base, like melee, but at a different pace and gameplay, as you would be able to tell if you try the map.

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with what Daxtreme said. I think Wc3Campaigns encourages new types of maps (even though melee-like games are certainly not "new") rather than encouraging "comparable copies" of previous maps.

P.S. How are you so certain that nobody here plays melee? I know a number of map makers that play melee.

[Anitarf]

Originally Posted by Sacreligious

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with what Daxtreme said. I think Wc3Campaigns encourages new types of maps (even though melee-like games are certainly not "new") rather than encouraging "comparable copies" of previous maps.

Unfortunately for you, I find this map very comparable with maps like Castle Builder.

On the topic of defensive gameplay, the problem with siege units easily destroying fortifications from afar is that they can also easily destroy other siege units from afar.

On the topic of dynamic alliances, I must say I hate the concept. It promotes dishonesty, when the point of a game is to have a fair match.

Also, the techtree includes too many units that are too indistinctive for my taste.

Because of these considerations, I cannot approve the map yet despite good polish on all areas. However, it's been a while since I played the map and I need to play more recent versions again before giving my final verdict.

[Sacreligious]

Thanks for the informative comment Anitarf.

* I'll check out siege vs. siege unit attack/armor types, and I will most likely reduce siege damage vs. mechanical armor.

* About the dynamic alliance-making; I wanted a different type of alliance system where you could ally with who would make the best ally. To make the best allies you must make enemies and I think the allying system shows who you can really trust and who you can't.
--> Still, bottom line is, I agree that it promotes dishonesty in some ways as a side-effect, thus I am certainly open to suggestions on how to improve the system.

* I'm not sure what you mean by the techtree includes too many units that are indistinctive. Every unit is distinguished by its particular attack/armor type, different abilities, and different fighting styles (some are fast, others are slow, etc). Would you mind pointing out a few examples?

* By the way, I said Wc3Campaigns encourages new maps, not that this was a new idea. I said melee-like maps are certainly not "new." (or in your case, "Castle Builder" like maps). I can understand it wasn't worded very well, but I just hope you know my intention was not to make an erroneous claim.

Once again thanks for the review, Anitarf.

[Tim.]

Originally Posted by Sacreligious

Yes, Abyssium has had a custom upkeep system since its creation.

Right, but have you messed with it since I mentioned the surplus problem in order to combat the issue?

[Sacreligious]

Yeah, Insane upkeep starts at 150 food. Insane upkeep means peasants get 1 gold per trip as opposed to 5.

[Anitarf]

As I said, it's been a while since I last played this, but I'll try to explain more about why I find the units indistinctive.

Every unit is distinguished by its particular attack/armor type, different abilities, and different fighting styles (some are fast, others are slow, etc)

Attack and armour types are no way to distinguish units. They can help in balancing by assisting in the creation of rock-paper-scissors like patterns, but having 5 different melee units with different attack/defense type combinations isn't something I'd call varied. Abilities do make a difference, but from what I remember they were mostly little passive bonuses. If one unit can regenerate slightly faster and the other one has a small chance to stun doesn't mean that they're now greatly different, especialy if they are very similar in appearance.

That might be an inherent problem of any "realistic" strategy game, though. I disliked Age of Empires for same reasons, for trying to squeeze in all the different warriors of an era and ending up with a far too large assortment of far too similar units to easily oversee.