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Old 03-12-2009, 12:53 AM   #1
Kyrbi0
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Default Complaining about Vex

Not really. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexorian
In all seriousness, using GUI for, say 6 months represents a bigger waste of time than two weeks to learn Jass. When I first started I used GUI extensively for a year trying hard to make code correctly, I had local var tricks and BS like that... Leaks weren't 'invented' yet. I got to say something with all honesty, sticking to GUI is a very good way to consume a lot of time on code that will never really be good. You'll as well be able to implement one idea and impress some kiddos at a spell session and even win, but this spell is going to be hellish to implement, for example. And this is something that's by-design in GUI - and also normal Jass doesn't help too much there either -

There was a time in which learning Jass was scary... there was no documentation whatsoever and the editor's Jass compiler just blows and causes crashes and a lot of evil things like you are not able to even declare globals. But now, it is 2009 and there are tools that make Jass even easier than GUI, and I am being honest with this - There is no justification not to learn Jass - If you want, learn Jass, use it for a couple of days and if you don't like it, stick to GUI. But I am kind of tired of people that stick to GUI just because they don't want to ever try Jass. Learning programming languages is complex but guess what? GUI is a programming language.

It is also bollocks to say everything is possible in GUI, the self-proclaimed good at GUI guys actually use Custom Script - which means they actually do use Jass - Instead of those awful, hard to read, maintain and update hybrids of GUI and Jass they should probably move on and make their and everyone's lives easier... I think there's a place in hell for people that use the "Custom Script" action.

---
Anyway, since this is way too off-topic lest not talk about the GUI stuff anymore, if you want to continue the discussion and prove me wrong, start a thread in some forum or something.
... I use Custom Script... Regardless.

Ok, since you are easily the local authority on this matter, I'll take your word for it that nowadays, JASS is even easier to learn than GUI (although it seems, to the layman, that Event-driven makes a lot more sense; X happens with Y condition, then do Z). So let's say I wanted to start learning. I've seen how many tutorials there are, how many "comprehensive guides to JASS there are.

Worse than that, it seems like I should really be learning vJASS, some offshoot. Should I waste any time in one of the regular tutorials and JASS?

I (personally) wouldn't even know where to start; and since I've got tons of other things to fill my time, since it's not a pressing issue, I ignore it.

Anyway, discuss.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:56 AM   #2
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Find someone who is willing to take some time out of their day to explain it to you, and I guarentee if they are worth a damn you will have it downpat in a week or less.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:57 AM   #3
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Remember that vJASS is merely an EXTENSION to JASS. It is good to have the basics at hand before jumping into something completely new.

Think of it this way. It would be much easier to learn to ride a bicycle with training wheels than without.
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:10 AM   #4
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Vexorian nailed it on the head. I learned JASS back in the day (a few years ago now) when there was no Jass NewGen Pack. My very first spell was "Mass Slow" which did nothing more than dummy-cast multiple instances of "Slow" on a target area. This was the hardest thing in the world to me at the time.

Within' two weeks of that day I was using KaTTaNa's Handle Vars script (back when you had to copy+paste it into your custom script section and be sure the ordering was correct) after noticing that I was not able to handle hundreds of instances of a "bullet" spell without over-writing global variables.

I'm going to stop there. Vexorian has already explained it, and I agree with him. There is nothing stopping GUI users from learning vJass other than themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker
Remember that vJASS is merely an EXTENSION to JASS.

Having a firm grip on the primitive JASS syntax gives you a great deal of insight into the workings of vJass, and suddenly the syntax becomes more natural. I'm very glad with the way Jass NewGen Pack has turned out. It used to not have TESH, and scopes didn't have the initializer keyword. People were using JassCraft and JassShopPro for their coding habits. Wow, seems like yesterday.

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Old 03-12-2009, 01:14 AM   #5
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Just as being good at GUI needs you to be good at Jass, so does being good at vJass need you to know Jass, as it compiles to Jass first. The difference however is that vJass is an enabler and good, whereas GUI is a disabler and suck, but same principle of understanding what you're coding.
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:18 AM   #6
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The tutorials are actually very self explanatory. I failed to understand timers for about half a day, but other than that I learned the basics of Jass in one weekend, and was ready to work without references by the next. All without any prior coding knowledge. And, let's face it: if *I* can do it, *anyone* can do it.

We really should get a tutorial that goes straight from GUI to vJass.
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:25 AM   #7
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Perserverence

There is no substitute for hard work.


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Old 03-12-2009, 01:39 AM   #8
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If you want that your modding projects get successful, then learn jass, otherwise, start stopping them. As simple as that.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:16 AM   #9
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This is now the super motivation thread to learn JASS.

To much positivity.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:53 AM   #10
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And I'm serious, Power of Corruption is a proof of that. This project had 2 dead ends: when I couldn't do anything better for my stuborness to keep it in GUI. and then when I tried to not to use timers (I was a fanatic of TriggerSleepAction) in order to avoid attaching.

Actually, thanks to vJASS, I was able to improve the map in a significant way, making it very nice and modular. Now fixing and configuring new stuff is faster and simpler.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
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(I was a fanatic of TriggerSleepAction)

Now now, lets not get to hasty, I don't think many people are failing that badly.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
I'll take your word for it that nowadays, JASS is even easier to learn than GUI (although it seems, to the layman, that Event-driven makes a lot more sense; X happens with Y condition, then do Z).
You seem to be at the point where you're deciding which angle to stab at it from, and haven't yet really looked into it at all. Jass IS event-driven, by the way. It would be REALLY weird for the GUI to be event-driven and the script not to be



Just jump at it, it gets easier the more you learn.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:44 AM   #13
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vJASS' structs still confuse me to no end, but yes, it really is an improvement :) Even if you don't start learning vJASS right away, JASS is still a good base for it.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:53 AM   #14
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Structs were probably the hardest thing in vJASS for me.

Though, I remember once I understood what a function was, learning JASS was a piece of cake.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:19 AM   #15
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Yeah, don't go headfirst into vJASS. While it may seem tempting (considering I've seen systems that are more vJASS than JASS >.> ), learn the JASS basics.

The way I learned, which is what I recommend, is pick up the ancient ol' Jasshelper (which is relevant here since we're working with JASS, not vJASS). Starting small, convert your GUI triggers to JASS. Plug them into JASShelper, which comes with a handy dandy function list, as well as ON DEMAND SYNTAX CHECKING (holyshit hint hint hint vex!!!) (aka, you don't have to save to find basic syntax errors). Clean them. Remove BJ functions, convert to locals, optimize, etc. You'll quickly learn the ins and outs of JASS. I mean, GUI IS just JASS... Albeit a monster with way too many flaws. But nonetheless.

It's a really good transition method, since you'll still be working in GUI; you'll just be making it better with JASS until you're ready to code purely in JASS. That's when you start learning vJASS to supplement it; ofc free-global-declaration and libraries are easier to learn than... like, anything.
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