(12) S3 Marine Corps

[Tim.]

Originally Posted by SentryIII

The maximum amount teams you can have is 6. Even if I could make 12 teams, it would probably be shown outside the display area. I looked at 6 teams of 2, 4 teams of 3, and 3 teams of 4. They just didn't look right. On top of that, if I had more than 2 teams, I would still have to label them "Teams don’t matter lol!1!!" or possibly "S3 Marines", creating repetitiveness and overall it would just look wrong. Personally, I would have went with 1 team of 12 players, but you need 2 teams to start a game on Battle.Net.

Make no forces, just 12 seperate teams. Then in-game change their alliance properties.

[SentryIII]

So... Did you check out the updated map? I would like to fix any problems with it before I implement it into my other 2 maps so that I won't have much of a problem with consistancy.

[Tim.]

You have certainly improved this version, and made many of the suggested alterations. I still feel unable to approve this - however.

• There is some annoying music playing, is that absolutely necessary? Just seems like a waste of space.
• There is no player-leave message.
• It is still far to difficult to find a single let alone all the beacon pieces with 4 players. You need to make the search size relative to the amount of players. Some means of allowing smaller parties to search effectively.
• There needs to be some means of exploring the map other than just walking around. Perhaps something like a detector item. One random player at the start gets the item, and it pings on the minimap within the general location one of the pieces every 10 seconds. A frequency tracker or something. Basically, it’s a way for a single player to get the idea of where to look, then that player must communicate with the other players so they know where to search.
• The buttons are still blurry, and I don’t like the new gradient effect attempt. Just use a flat color scheme, not blue to teal or whatever it currently is.

It’s coming along, keep it up. Unapproved.

[SentryIII]

I checked out the list, but I don't feel persuaded to make anymore changes.

• There is some annoying music playing, is that absolutely necessary? Just seems like a waste of space.

The music sets the mood for the game at the start, and at the end of a successful mission. I guess this is a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like it, other people enjoyed it, and I've had no complaints about it. I guess, if you really don't like it, it only plays once per game. I think it should stay.

• There is no player-leave message.

I looked over my triggers just to be sure. I'm guessing you never saw any leave messages because the players who left were dead. However, if the player left while still alive, you'll see a message saying something like "Communications with (player) has been severed." or "(player) has misteriously disappeared." and at the end game screen, the player will be labelled as "MISSING IN ACTION". The reason I did this was because if you're dead, there's no way you could affect the gameplay (other than pinging where you died or something). If you have friends in the game and they die, they'll most likely either stay and watch, or inform you that they left or they're leaving (it's easy to keep track of friends). Overall, I don't think any changes are needed.

• It is still far to difficult to find a single let alone all the beacon pieces with 4 players. You need to make the search size relative to the amount of players. Some means of allowing smaller parties to search effectively.
• There needs to be some means of exploring the map other than just walking around. Perhaps something like a detector item. One random player at the start gets the item, and it pings on the minimap within the general location one of the pieces every 10 seconds. A frequency tracker or something. Basically, it’s a way for a single player to get the idea of where to look, then that player must communicate with the other players so they know where to search.

Here's a strategy: Flares and stimpacks. Use flares to view difficult to see areas (such as the forest in the northeast, or the rocky area to the southwest. Search the edges of the map early on while it's nighttime, then search the center area in the day (there's less trees and rocks in the center area) to maximize the amount of terrain you cover. There's other strategies you can use to quickly find parts, but I'm not telling. :p Other than that, there's always the option of choosing a lower difficulty level. In difficulties 1-3, the Distress Beacon is pre-assembled. The monsters are weaker as well, so all you need to do is find it. The only way you could possibly die in difficulty 1 is if you use Hand Grenades on yourself (or you're AFK for too long). Overall, no changes are needed. You just need a strategy. You don't even need a save code for difficulties 1-5.

• The buttons are still blurry, and I don’t like the new gradient effect attempt. Just use a flat color scheme, not blue to teal or whatever it currently is.

Again, the gradient is something I chose to do and I like it. I only agreed with your previous suggestion because you made a good point in that it looked like the players didn't have enough mana. That problem is gone, and all that's left seems like your personal preferences. I think it looks great, and others agreed with me as well. It's definitely staying. As for the buttons, I don't know what you're talking about. They all look sharp in-game. On that note, you're the only one AFAIK that encountered these blurry buttons. I'll look into it.

I did notice while playing that the ammo buttons (yellow) made the item charges hard to read when it's at least 100. I'm considering making those icons darker to make the item charges easier to read.

I'm sorry, but if you don't have any other concerns, the only other viable reasons I see to change this map is to re-enable saving and making an official version.



EDIT: I figure it out. The blurriness of the buttons is caused by having your "Texture Quality" set to "Low". Change it to "Medium" or "High" and they'll look crisp and clear. Are you running on a low-end or really old comp or something? :p

[Captain Griffen]

EDIT: I figure it out. The blurriness of the buttons is caused by having your "Texture Quality" set to "Low". Change it to "Medium" or "High" and they'll look crisp and clear. Are you running on a low-end or really old comp or something? :p

Performance > Graphics. Most map makers on B.net have no clue what memory leaks are, or how to make efficient code - even a computer that is far more powerful than WC3 requires lags on many maps. You shouldn't have to have medium graphics options in order to have decent buttons.

[Jacek]

btw we were playing on difficulty 3 (Default)

[SentryIII]

Originally Posted by Captain Griffen

Performance > Graphics. Most map makers on B.net have no clue what memory leaks are, or how to make efficient code - even a computer that is far more powerful than WC3 requires lags on many maps. You shouldn't have to have medium graphics options in order to have decent buttons.

Currently, the buttons are 32x32 and take up around 2-3kb each. I originally made the buttons in 64x64. The problem is that I have approximately 150 buttons (including disabled versions)! The 64x64 versions were 4x the filesize of the 32x32 versions. All of the buttons are compressed tga files. From what I can tell, there is no difference in quality between the 32x32 and 64x64 versions on "High" texture quality. On "Medium" texture quality, the 32x32 buttons have slight pixelation, but still retain clarity. On "Low" texture quality, the buttons are blurry. I haven't tested the 64x64 buttons on "Medium" or "Low" quality, but I'm assuming they would look clear.

In any case, my primary reason for not changing this is because of filesize. If you do the math, 2 * 150 = 300kb for the 32x32 buttons, 8 * 150 = 1200kb for the 64x64 buttons. Since the map is approximately 1300kb right now, replacing the buttons with 64x64 would increase the filesize to ~2200kb. To me, that's unacceptable. Right now, it's a very distributable filesize, having pretty fast download speeds on Battle.net, and I would like it to stay that way.

You mentioned memory leaks and inefficient code in other people's maps. That has nothing to do with graphics, or my map for that matter. If you have to lower some settings just to play someone's map, then there's probably something wrong with the map. If it's your comp (as I see in your signature), then it's probably time to get a new comp. :p

Originally Posted by Jacek

btw we were playing on difficulty 3 (Default)

The stategy in my previous post still applies. Cover as much ground as you can during the beginning. If you cover the whole map and you still can't find it, someone was being careless and walked right by it. If a large group of monsters are focusing their attack on you, run away, fire a few shots, rinse and repeat. Also, don't waste Hand Grenades on weak monsters. Save them for groups of Hydralisks. Again, strategy and teamwork is key to finishing the mission.

If you have any other concerns, feel free to post. I'll have an updated map by tomorrow. I'll check for any new suggestions before I post the map. Here's a list of thing's I'll be updating:

• Why do you have 2 forces that are allied in-game? It would make more sense to just ally all 12 teams in-game, and have every slot locked to a team. It is always annoying to find a map where the second force is called “Teams don’t matter lol!1!!” if you get my meaning.
• I did notice while playing that the ammo buttons (yellow) made the item charges hard to read when it's at least 100. I'm considering making those icons darker to make the item charges easier to read.
• Players will no longer spawn if they're Computer Players. (This is to prevent people from setting them and getting their weapons/ammo when they die.)

Oh, and thank you all for showing interest in my maps! :)

[Captain Griffen]

If it's your comp (as I see in your signature), then it's probably time to get a new comp. :p

That was actually out of date and referred to having a different hard drive in (one with Linux on it), which had an OS not WE compatible and insufficient space anyway. My computer has 1.6 Ghz processor, 128mb graphics card and 512mb of RAM. Last time I check, that's massively more powerful than WC3's system recommendations.

You mentioned memory leaks and inefficient code in other people's maps. That has nothing to do with graphics, or my map for that matter.

Graphics takes up processing power and memory. Inefficient code takes up processing power and memory. How are they unrelated? Why should I have to turn up my resolution because your map has poor quality buttons? If you're going to have that, at least put in a message telling everyone 'I have put in poor quality buttons, so turn up your texture quality', or something to that effect.

If your buttons are unreadable, that isn't the fault of the person playing the map.

[SentryIII]

I've updated the map and is ready for testing. Also, I added a little something into the map for the test. 15 minutes into the map, a message appears indicating that you can use the chat command "-testlocate" to ping the location of the parts on the minimap. I added this so that you have some ideas as to why you can't find the parts (most likely because you're covering ground too slow, or someone was careless and non-observant). There's no longer any forces as well. I played through it and I enjoyed the NE music and UI. :) The map is attached below. Since this is still a test, the saving system is still disabled.

Originally Posted by Captain Griffen

That was actually out of date and referred to having a different hard drive in (one with Linux on it), which had an OS not WE compatible and insufficient space anyway. My computer has 1.6 Ghz processor, 128mb graphics card and 512mb of RAM. Last time I check, that's massively more powerful than WC3's system recommendations.

Graphics takes up processing power and memory. Inefficient code takes up processing power and memory. How are they unrelated? Why should I have to turn up my resolution because your map has poor quality buttons? If you're going to have that, at least put in a message telling everyone 'I have put in poor quality buttons, so turn up your texture quality', or something to that effect.

If your buttons are unreadable, that isn't the fault of the person playing the map.

HUH? You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? On top of that, I noticed that there's no indication in your posts that you have even played the maps. This "discussion" doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so if you would like to continue with this, I suggest we do it through PMs. Other than that, unless you have played the maps and would like to contribute to their improvement, I ask that you please refrain from posting in this thread.

I've already stated why I'm not switching my buttons to 64x64, but if it's not clear enough, here's a list of pros and cons for switching the buttons from 32x32 to 64x64.

Switching buttons from 32x32 to 64x64.
PROS:

• Higher quality graphics for players using the "Low" Texture Quality setting

CONS:

• Filesize increases by almost double
• Longer download times on Battle.net
• Fewer people willing to stay for the longer download times
• Few people these days set their Texture Quality to "Low" (cheaper, more powerful hardware available)

Simply put, those who have higher graphics settings will not benefit from this at all, and they'll still be discouraged from playing due to the longer wait times for downloading. Why should I even put effort into re-creating around 150 buttons at 64x64 when only a handful of people will notice the difference? Players who set their Texture Quality to "Low" should be expecting to have low-quality graphics and shouldn't be complaining about having low quality graphics. Unless I'm missing something very important, there's no way I'm changing it.

[Captain Griffen]

Here's is the problem I have: you are very much giving the impression that something going wrong on your map, and your map alone, is the fault of the person playing the map. It isn't. Low graphics works fine on 99.9% of maps. Thus the problem must be on your map. I even suggested a way of fixing the problem:

If you're going to have that, at least put in a message telling everyone

Pros: Solves a problem.
Cons: None.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Ignoring your complete rudeness and arrogence...

I know how computers work. I know how processing power and memory is drained. If you cannot accept constructive criticism, then why did you post your map? Being aggressive and responding to criticism by making baseless derogatory remarks isn't a constructive way to proceed.

[Tim.]

Originally Posted by SentryIII

The music sets the mood for the game at the start, and at the end of a successful mission. I guess this is a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like it, other people enjoyed it, and I've had no complaints about it. I guess, if you really don't like it, it only plays once per game. I think it should stay.

What is the collective file size of all imported sound files, and what is the file size of the start and end music files alone?

Originally Posted by SentryIII

I looked over my triggers just to be sure. I'm guessing you never saw any leave messages because […] Overall, I don't think any changes are needed.

Then make the leave message for dead players be tinted grey or something, it is important in all maps for player leave messages to be displayed. Just because the player is already dead does not make this map any exception.

Originally Posted by SentryIII

EDIT: I figure it out. The blurriness of the buttons is caused by having your "Texture Quality" set to "Low". Change it to "Medium" or "High" and they'll look crisp and clear. Are you running on a low-end or really old comp or something? :p

I do use Low texture quality, and know quite a few users that do as well. Perhaps add information to the quest log saying ‘High Texture Quality is suggested for this map.’ Basically, let the user know you put the effort in to make things as good as possible.

Here are the new errors in your most recent release.

• Why is there an ubersplat below the Beacon? Looks very, very silly.
• The quest log claims there are 3 parts, but when I played there was only 1?
• If you have weapon A equipped, and weapon B has 0 ammo left in it, then switch to weapon B, you need to wait to equip weapon B THEN reload weapon B. Perhaps is the weapon is empty, when equipping it you should reload it as well.
• Your detection command is buggy, if we already have the beacon set up, it still says after 10 minutes type -test in order to locate the beacon.
• You are not informed when the beacon is under attack, bgut you are infored when it is killed? Seems odd.
• Toward the end of the game there was so many enmy units that they all could not be moved at once, resulting in juttered movement. This made running away in the last 3 minutes extremely easy. I suggest removing the basic alien units later in the game (Remove the ones already on the map).
• I added a Computer (Easy), and in-game no marine was created for him. However he showed up on the end-game list as still Active.

Still unapproved.

[SentryIII]

Originally Posted by Captain Griffen

I know how computers work. I know how processing power and memory is drained. If you cannot accept constructive criticism, then why did you post your map? Being aggressive and responding to criticism by making baseless derogatory remarks isn't a constructive way to proceed.

I'm sure you do know how computers work (not being sarcastic here), but you're missing key facts. Textures are stored in video memory and is processed and rendered by the GPU on the video card, taking almost all of that load off the CPU. So even if you're looking at around 100 units on the screen, the CPU still has to calculate their movements and attacks, process triggers, and all that fun stuff. If you're card is at least DirectX 8.1 compliant (AFAIK all 128mb video cards are), maxing out your settings on a resolution of 1024x768 will reduce your FPS by 1 or 2 (yes, I've actually tried that with my Geforce 4 Ti, there is almost no difference in framerate). If there's a problem with a map having memory leaks and inefficient code, then the hard drive with the swap file will be read/written to more often (reducing performance), and the triggers with inefficient code will be processed by the CPU on top of the other things that still need processing (reducing performance). My point is, having a powerful video card that can run smoothly on max settings will not make up for the performance lost by the CPU and hard drive, and lowering your graphics settings certainly won't make things any better. Your arguments only apply to systems with Integrated Graphics.

Now as for your suggestion...

Why should I have to turn up my resolution because your map has poor quality buttons? If you're going to have that, at least put in a message telling everyone 'I have put in poor quality buttons, so turn up your texture quality'

It seems like you're making an excuse to insult the quality of the buttons by trying to pass it off as constructive criticism. Again, you still haven't given any indication in any of your posts that you have played the map(s), so your credibility is somewhat lacking. But let's assume for the rest of this paragraph that you did play them. You also said you're currently using a computer with specs that exceed WC3's system recommendations, so why would you be playing on low-quality settings? Also, in all of your posts, you were simply replying to what I had said, not on what you saw on the map. Therefore, I refused to take your suggestion seriously. Now, look what Tim. suggested:

I do use Low texture quality, and know quite a few users that do as well. Perhaps add information to the quest log saying ‘High Texture Quality is suggested for this map.’

He has definitely played the map, and he indicates and he and a few others set their Texture Quality to "Low". His suggestion sounds much more polite, and it also seems reasonable. Hmm. The only problem I have is that you can't change the texture quality in-game. Still, I'm gonna add that!

Overall, your posts aren't helping at all. I'll say this one more time before I start ignoring you: unless you have played the maps and would like to contribute to their improvement, I ask that you please refrain from posting in this thread. If you would like to continue this pointless conversation, feel free to do it through PMs.

-----

Now for Tim.'s suggestions...

• The quest log claims there are 3 parts, but when I played there was only 1?

On difficulties 1-3, the Distress Beacon is pre-assembled to make it easier for new players. Now that you mention it, it does seem weird. I'm thinking of spawning all 3 parts at the same location (spaced out a little bit of course). It would definitely make it easier to see as well if people are on the lookout for it.

• If you have weapon A equipped, and weapon B has 0 ammo left in it, then switch to weapon B, you need to wait to equip weapon B THEN reload weapon B. Perhaps is the weapon is empty, when equipping it you should reload it as well.

Automatically reload when equipped? The problem I have with that is when I'm carrying multiple weapons and I switch to a different weapon with no ammo (but carrying spare ammo), I might decide to switch to a different weapon instead. The way I made it is that the cooldown of the weapon represents the reload time. Once the cooldown ends, the weapon can be fired again. I wouldn't want to wait for the reload to finish just to switch weapons. It is a good idea, but I'll have to think about it.

• Your detection command is buggy, if we already have the beacon set up, it still says after 10 minutes type -test in order to locate the beacon.

This is really just something I threw together for this version to help you find the parts (so that you'll know why you couldn't find the parts earlier on). I could patch it up a bit for the test versions, but it's gonna be removed in the next official version.

Your other suggestions are reasonable and will be considered. Thank you, sir!



EDIT: The sounds' filesize is 422KB. The musics' filesize is 703KB. The music filesize could be made smaller, but the sound quality would be so low that it would become annoying and destroy the whole point of it being in the map in the first place.

[Tim.]

Originally Posted by SentryIII

EDIT: The sounds' filesize is 422KB. The musics' filesize is 703KB. The music filesize could be made smaller, but the sound quality would be so low that it would become annoying and destroy the whole point of it being in the map in the first place.

Holy crap! No wonder the map is so large!! Please, kill the music. For the few people that would enjoy listening to it, there would be at least triple who would rather be able to download faster. A 700k reduction in filesize would cut download times to a third of their current amount. I would highly suggest you reconsider keeping the music files in.

[SentryIII]

Originally Posted by Tim.

Holy crap! No wonder the map is so large!! Please, kill the music. For the few people that would enjoy listening to it, there would be at least triple who would rather be able to download faster. A 700k reduction in filesize would cut download times to a third of their current amount. I would highly suggest you reconsider keeping the music files in.

Sure, it drastically reduce the filesize and download times, but I'm gonna have to refuse. My logic for this might seem weird to you. The filesize is just right. That is, the download times are not too slow, yet not too fast. If it's too slow, people complain about the slow d/l and will be less inclined to stay and wait. On the other hand, if it's too fast, I have people complaining that I'm not starting the game when it's not even half full and will be less inclined to stay and wait for more people. Yep... Weird, but it makes sense to me. Generally, people download the map within 20-30 seconds. I've had some players state that they use 56k, and they download the map in a little over a minute. During this time, a lot of people (especially people who've played the maps a lot) discuss strategy, tell the new players how to play, and prepare their code to paste once the game starts. I'm usually able to start a full house game within 2-3 minutes after creation. Of course, I may be a little biased since I have a cable connection. :p

As for the music itself, I think it plays an important role in establishing the mood. I couldn't find appropriate music within WC3 that would establish the mood. They just sounded "too medieval", so I used custom music. At the beginning of the game, the music is supposed to give you the feeling that you're setting out to do something big. It's a minute long, and Phase 1 starts around the same time it ends. If anything else, it pumps me up for the game and I'm not tired of hearing it...yet. :) The victory music is supposed to give you the feeling of accomplishment. Personally, I like it. I was originally gonna have custom music for a failed mission, but I found something suitable within WC3. It gives you the feeling that YOU'RE DEAD! AHH! :p In any case, it adds an aesthetic touch to the map.

After playing Defense a lot, I'm starting to think that the 3rd piece of music I added for that map doesn't feel significant enough, or doesn't set the mood properly. I'm thinking of removing it. Other than that, I strongly believe the music should stay.

[Anitarf]

Kind of odd that you got in such a heated discussion about icon filesize, then, since you could easily stuff 150 64x64 icons in 700kb.