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Old 09-11-2008, 10:44 PM   #181
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A veteran? Well, if by veteran you mean a lazybum that has never finished a project during teh course of 7 years he discovered modding and crap, then yes, I am a veteran.

What I meant about stast tweaking is that most "race mods" I have seen only seem to tinker with stats with units that could be not much different from mercs hired, and never give any sort of particular racial identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Askhati
If you want a building to upgrade into a shop with items, the base building (Foundation in our case) needs to also have the items available, even if it doesn't have the "Sell Item" ability.

Is it possible to hide them from the base building (so only when it upgrades to shop the items are shown)? I have not been succesful so far.

If you want the Juggernaut to spawn an Overheated version, just use hydra.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:25 PM   #182
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Hydra will spawn a new, separate unit at death. We want the Juggernaut to cycle between the two versions, like the Phoenix and the Egg.

Read your updated post, have some thoughts:

Hobgob, Clockwerk: I'd say we make the Hobgob the T1 'Footman', starting out about on par with a Ghoul, BUT then we give it at least 2/3 upgrades (like the NE Archer - life, movement, night vision) that pumps it and makes it almost equal with a Grunt (fully upgraded should definitely beat an equivalent Footman). A passive ability like "Blood Scent" (deals increased damage if below 50% health) could also be added via research. The Clockwerk could then be the meat shield (unlikely, assume we have the Jugg for this?), the cavalry (hard to imagine it as a Knight or Raider equivalent though) or the basic ranged unit - give it a clockwork crossbow, slow AS and a medium MS. Would be a nice twist, having a ranged unit that tough. Other than that, I can't think of anything else at the moment.

Foundations: are we having only one type, or the three I suggested? (btw, House of Monopoly became the Monopoly Hall, has a better ring to it) Using three gives us more options for each Foundation, as a single Foundation building will only be able to upgrade into 12 different options (commandcard limitations). The three I suggested are more indicative of their eventual functions, eg the Steam Foundation upgrades into buildings that all require steam in some fashion, etc.

Skunkworks = testing grounds/area for prototypes, especially mechanized designs. I was under the impression that it was a quite common expression? Nonetheless, I figured it would be the perfect name for the Goblin Upgrades building, other than the hackneyed "Goblin Laboratory"...

Spellcasters: there are usually 3 - Offensive (Spell Breaker, Shaman), Defensive (Priest, Witch Doctor) and Support (Sorceress, Spirit Walker). I guess the Mechanic falls under 'Defensive', but what about the two others? Maybe something along the Alchemy/Greed/Bombs line?

Resource Gatherer: who does this? A modded Shredder?

Blaster, Steam Warrior: are they the ones who were axed by Handclaw? For that matter, why are we then using his naming scheme for their Altar? Wouldn't he want to axe that too?
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:21 PM   #183
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Well, I pretty much got nothing done last night... Meh.[/i]


@Alevice:
*Veteran* - Project or no, any user with a good amount of rep and whom I know by name/avatar is considered a "veteran" to me. Erwt, Darkwulfv, Dusk, Pyrogasm, Phoenix-IV (always mix those two up...), etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alevice
What I meant about stast tweaking is that most "race mods" I have seen only seem to tinker with stats with units that could be not much different from mercs hired, and never give any sort of particular racial identity.

I loath those kind of race mods. I always download them with such high hopes, but it's always like "Hey! I made 8 races in 2 months; look at me go!!!". Grr..

~~~

@Ashkati:
*Hobgoblin vs Clockwerk* - I rather agree (esp. about abilities/upgrades; this guy should be Footman-esque, then be buffed into more of a faster/weaker Grunt). However, even with the Juggernaut (or any other mech...) acting as a "meat shield", I... wait, maybe that's the right role for this guy; sucking up damage? I mean, I really don't think he should be ranged (what would he throw, a wrench? (wait, I actually have a wrench model, and he holds a wrench...)... Well, but if he was ranged, that would make him even harder to kill. If he's at least on the front-lines, enemies have a chance to focus-fire him. Thoughts?

*Foundations* - I'd prefer to keep only 1. I like your suggestion, but I feel it goes to in-depth into something that was really just a side-thought, or a "race facet" that was not meant to be over-developed or require too much thought.
This way, every "Barracks", the "farm" (if using Stockpile), possibly the "Shop" (if items can be hid), "Altar", and possibly even the "Town Hall" (hey, it still requires the same money/time) can be built from any location. Towers/Farm (?)/etc will have to be built manually, which only makes sense.

Besides, so far, Goblins have: huge emphasis on Mechs, tertiary "Scrap" resource, buildings that can reconstruct, (possibly an advanced "Shop"-thing), (possibly Mines around buildings?), (possibly an economy-boosting Hero?). To me, adding any more would be murder on prospective players. Especially if I never make a campaign (thus, a mini-beginner's guide) for the Goblins; you'd never know where to start. It must be streamlined, while adding some cool new functions.

(NOTE: I know some of those are new, so which do you think should apply (to the ones in parentheses)?)

*unkworks*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkati
...I was under the impression that it was a quite common expression?...
Well, I consider myself pretty good with words, but I can't say I've ever heard such an expression before. You do know that a "Skunk" is a small 4-legged black-and-white-striped mammal which secretes a foul odor, right??

*Resource Gatherer* - That's the thing. I'm working (lol not really) on seeing if this is even possible, including triggers. But if it works, all the better; then we don't have to waste a "unit-slot" space of the 12 available for a resource gatherer. Basically it's either a building that auto-harvests, or a building (Lumber Mill-esque) that releases auto-Shredders that harvest and come back.

*Blaster + Steam Warrior* - No, they weren't axed by him; I didn't post the ones that were. He was actually pretty lenient, I think; he mainly axed some name and spell ideas I had from him. Most of the units are actually just intuitive (like Hobgoblins and Tradeprinces; it's in the lore!). And I'm 80% sure he knows and is fine with the "Altar of Greed"; I asked about it in his topic and he explained it to me (like how I explained it to you guys).

I put "~removed~" because I personally plan on removing them... Or rather, they will probably be the first to go. Because while they're nice ideas (esp. the Blaster v_v) and they fit perfectly (I always thought the Goblins should have a few more mech-types), there are too many other also great ideas, that I'd rather see (also, some of those ideas have custom models... Yes, I know I shouldn't make decisions based on customs!! :/...)

*Spellcasters* - Hmm, well, I actually didn't have something planned about this (unlike Handclaw, the dastardly fiend!) I was actually kinda "forgetting" and "merging" that function with the organics.
Actually, that's rather important, let me explain the "which building for units" thing.

~~~
Since the Goblins have an interesting race scheme, with a low ratio of organics to mechanics, they require a different "barracks" setup (instead of the basic "t1 barracks, t2 caster barracks, t2 barracks, t3 barracks").
Table:
"Town Hall" Mechano-Rig (T0)
"Organic/Caster Barracks" Hobgoblin (T1)
Mechanic (T1)
Saboteur (T2)
"Balloon Trooper" (T2-v)
"Mech Golem (steamsuits) Barracks" Clockwerk* (T1)
"Blaster"** (T1-2?)
"Steam Warrior"** (T3?)
"Mech Vehicle (vehicles) Barracks" "Mortar Trike" (T2)
"Battle Balloon" (T2-^)
"Juggernaut" (T3?)
Dirtdigger" (T2)
*** War Airship (T3)

* = I forgot to mention this in my above (Techtree) post: The Clockwerk's had another purpose.
Originally, even before the "Sc2 Roach" thing I was going for, he was supposed to be mimicking the Automatons of Age of Mythology. It's this automonous mechanical infantry/soldier (melee sword attack), that could repair other Automatons! Then, if one died, it fell into a pile of scrap, which could be re-put-together from any other Automatons! Obviously, with the existing "Scrap" function already in place, it'd be hard to tell whether it was "Clockwerk" scrap or "regular" scrap. So perhaps it fails right there. However, they could still repair (only) each other... The only reason I bring it up is because it was the original "scheme" for this unit, and I'd hate to lose it. Thoughts?
** = Obviously, if/since these guys are removed, this whole "barracks" will have to be rethunk.
*** = I also forgot to mention this in my above post: the War Zeppelin is supposed to be Built by the Rig itself! (from the Terran "Thor" unit of Starcraft 2 fame). Instead of a building, you construct this thing on the ground, and once finished, it floats up and dominates stuff. (If I was a crazy mdl-master, I'd have a Birth anim where the wooden part sits on the ground, constructing, then when near done, the balloon would inflate and the armor plates appear on it. :P)

~~~

Obviously, since some of the things will be removed/rethought/switched around, the above table is just a guide; if the "Trader/Merchant/Profiteer" comes in, he'll have to go into the "Organic Barracks"; we have to decide which model to use for the "Battle/Balloon/Troop" (one is a mech, the other organic, so that decides that guy, too), etc etc.

(Hopefully I will come back later? with a typed-up list of all the ideas from my old archives... Found some neat old stuff.)
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:10 PM   #184
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So you're suggesting that everything except towers be built from the same Foundation? There are a few problems though:

1) it kindof (in my opinion) nullifies the whole point of having a modular foundation, since every building will go: build foundation/ build barracks; build foundation/ build farm; build foundation/ build blacksmith; etc etc. By differentiating the foundation types, we actually add purpose to the whole idea of building a foundation in the first place: you build a Steam Foundation because you already know that you want one of the 'steam' buildings, or a Dirt Foundation because you want a Stockpile. With a single generic foundation, you lose that, and could just as well skip the whole idea. If you want to give them Foundations as a racial diversity, at least make it diverse enough to be meaningful instead of just tedious and annoying.

2) if we use a generic foundation, every building built on it will have to have the same pathing map, ie the same 'footprint'. You can see what problems that will lead to! Imagine a T3 Town Hall, an Altar, a Stockpile and a simple tower all having the same pathing map - your base will need many more acres of land than an equivalent Human or other base. If we diversify the Foundations, each foundation can take the middle/average ground of all the options that can be built on it - smallish regular footprint for Dirt, medium with walkways for Stone, and then Steam is the largest, also with walkways (those areas that take up space when you place the building, but through which units can still move afterwards).

Skunkworks:
I know what a skunk is. In July, I watched from less than 10m away (sitting in a 4x4 with the windows down and a 500mm lense on a Sony SLR) as a pride of young lions attacked one. The stench was horrible, believe me! TIA... Anyway, Sid Meier used the term "Skunkworks" in the Alpha Centauri game (it's a building that reduces prototype construction cost and time in that particular city), so I'd say it's a pretty legit term to use. Don't Goblins smell anyway? (you'd at least have a stench from all the chemicals and explosives being tested)

Clockwerk:
Ranged is an option, but I really wouldn't make the projectile a wrench - too cartoony. Yes, I know that Goblins do crazy things like that, but it's going to spoil the mood a bit - no-one wants to see their troops tragically slaughtered by flying tools.
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:51 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkati
So you're suggesting that everything except towers be built from the same Foundation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
This way, every "Barracks", the "farm" (if using Stockpile), possibly the "Shop" (if items can be hid), "Altar", and possibly even the "Town Hall" (hey, it still requires the same money/time) can be built from any location. Towers/Farm (?)/etc will have to be built manually, which only makes sense.

No. In fact, Only the 3 "barracks" are 'absolutely' on the list, the "altar" is 'probably', the 'shop'Shop 'only if hidden items', and the Town Hall (as you pointed out), with it's huge pathing map, is becoming 'increasingly-less likely'. (although the Town Hall could be made smaller)...

--EDIT--
Oh yeah, can't forget the "Blacksmith" and "Lumber Mill" buidings. That's at least 5/6 modular buildings out of ~9.


Then, if we come up with other buildings (i.e. Repair Bay, for repairing mechs (and upgrading mech-only stuff?), or a special racial Shop that could buy/sell items, train "Traders/Merchants/Profiteers", send out "Trade Caravans" to go back-and-forth and get resources, Trade Gold/Lumber, etc...)... If we make any of that stuff, it could be set to build from a Construction Yard.

But only that stuff. Because you're right, Towers and Farms and other stuff are either too small or too large.

~~~

1. (first off, I'll address this concern the way you described it)
The Construction Yard could be built really quickly; perhaps even near-instantly? Think about it; it could cost, like, 15 Gold/Lumber, and be set up in ~5 seconds. You got a couple Rigs running around making a bunch of Construction Yards, and then when you have the need, you "upgrade" one into a specific building.

However, all that is moot if the Construction Yard is just a by-product; think about if the Rig makes buildings like normal (has a normal, full build-list). But then, say you need a different building, and you don't want to spend all that time (or you don't have a Rig nearby, etc). Then you just "destroy" the building and reduce it to a Construction Yard, which can then "upgrade" into "any" (NOTE: not really any) other Goblin building.

2. (Addressed above^)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Skunkworks* - Ah, ok. Just making sure... :P
Anyway, I've never played Alpha Centauri, but I respect Sid Meier. However, I also think that's rather a stretch, and that we could come up with a better name instead of a rationalization.

*Clockwerk* - On the contrary; I can see a lot of people thinking that was a nice touch. Not only does it save on KB's (I'd rather have a tiny custom Wrench projectile model, then go through all the work to add a metal crossbow? onto an existing model), and besides, the Clockwerk model actually holds a wrench. How much more 'made-in-heaven' can you get?

And I'd just take a wild guess and say that "no-one wants to see their troops tragically slaughtered", period. :D

(Still, I'm not completely sold on having it being Ranged. I'm entertaining the thought, but not completely sold. Any thoughts about the "super regen" and/or "healing/resurrecting fellow clockwerks"?)^)


--EDIT--

I know this is already huge, so I'll just post this with [hidden] tags.
Hidden information:

This is just me typing up all the useful old ideas and thoughts I had (on papers) for the Goblins. At least, the ones I could readily find.

Robo-Worker (gather and build) (normal)
-->Robo-Miner (only wood, but fast!)
-->Robo-Harvester (only gold, but fast)
(costs $ to upgrade, but can switch back for free!)

Hovercraft

Science Vessel (flying mech. caster)

Tinker Skill Ideas: Laser - March of Machines - Rearm - Heat-Seeking Rockets - Robo Goblin (immobile Tower form) - Goblin Land Mine - Suicide Bot (storm bolt?)

G) needs a Repair Bay (upgrades too!)

Tinker --> Bombardier?, Alchemist --> Brewer?

No "Farms"? = No Food, = No Upkeep (greedy and good with managing money... yes yes yes)

Medic Pack: upgrade/ability for Organic units! (regen while not moving?)

Lazer Mode: on Warmech! (immobile, but Lazer!)

Gyro-Sniper (= Sniper + Anti-Mage + Gyrocopter): Attacks very slowly (and/or lowered AttackDamage) while Flying
- 3rd infantry! Anti-mage!
- Headshot (instakill?) or (silence, -mana)? (slowdown, -mana? -silence?)
- Gyropack (Raven flying height)

Dirtdigger: Sc Lurker atk while underground?! - Undermine (DH Immolation, only against structures) - Sabotage!? (but on Saboteur?)

Saboteur: mod. Incinerate, w/o bonus damage. Explosion. Saboteur --> "Crazy Gobbo"??.... Sabotage?
- No attack? only spells like "Crazy Ivan" from Red Alert 2??

Behemoth: (throws own units --> throws ground/throws trees/throws own units (like the Automaton Clockwerk!) ))) only 1...!

Junkman: [[[= Scrap/Meat Wagon, disregard]]]

Rocketeer: ranged shooter infantry equipped with jetpack??

Battle Balloon: Built 4 at a time attached to a "Control Tower"? (Red Alert 2)

Goblin Hovercraft "Mortar Trike": (passive: launcha ranged anti-structure mine (chance-on-attack) (= Reaper from Sc2!) -- active: spider mines (anti-unit))
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Old 09-14-2008, 05:00 AM   #186
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Alright everyone. I just want to make this known among all:

I am supremely busy. Mainly because I've been slacking off in college, and if I don't get my act together, my parents will be... less than kind in regards to my constant Wc3-editing + Interneting activities. :P

Thus, I will just make a note: I will not, in all likelihood, be doing much, if any, actual World Editor work on the Trolls; nor any other race. I simply cannot balance school work, work work, church work, life work, and random contests.

I am currently embroiled in the "Race Olympics" over at the Hive, which ends on the 17th of October; hopefully I can piecemeal that work so it doesn't pile up at the end and leave me a procrastinate slob (like the latest Spell Olympics over here...). If Wc3C hosts a similar contest, I'll also be joining that, and putting my attention to that.

Regardless, please don't take this as either A: I'm giving up, B: don't come here and post/model/draw/discuss, or C: all of the above. I completely enjoy and plan on continuing my work; just when I get "on top" of my studies (and/or school lets out for Winter Break :P).

In fact, please do continue posting/modelling/discussing/drawing. I am more than happy to talk theory-crafting with you and plan different things out. However, I will most likely not be actually Editing anything, anytime soon. :/ Just taking (yet another) leaf out of Handclaw's book, here.

Anyway, carry on.

--EDIT--

See, now, it would be pretty funny if one of you posted "O RLY?" after this... :P Dangit I love that owl!
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:25 PM   #187
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That 'owl' pops up on the *insert random number* chan boards... Alongside 'Man the Harpoons!' and 'Maor!'... Why would a sweet, innocent church-going boy know that? ;)
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:14 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkati
That 'owl' pops up on the *insert random number* chan boards... Alongside 'Man the Harpoons!' and 'Maor!'... Why would a sweet, innocent church-going boy know that? ;)

Huh?? It's quite a popular Internet meme; I've seen it all over. Heck, do a Google Image for "O RLY", and the entire first page is literally this one owl (with a few exceptions). So are the next ~10? pages, with different versions.

Anything to say about the mega-posts above?
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:36 PM   #189
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I have a great idea! It came into my head at school when we were learning the periodic table!(:P)
Maybe goblin gold-miners could have a 5% chance of getting francuim ore, instead of gold - and when you have 25/50 francuim ore stored up, you're mechanical units that shoot things, get a +3/+5 attack bonus? Oh and once you have gotten 100/200 francuim ore you can't get anymore.
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:46 PM   #190
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I'm sorry, I have no idea how to implement that (as in, I wouldn't know the triggers).

However, even if I did, I kinda feel like it's too... in depth for Goblins. These guys are zany, and the race should almost have that feel to it(crazy, obsessive Goblins riding around in shoddily-constructed mechs seconds from exploding, bursting flames and exploding bombs, rickety contraptions, shady dealers in the alleyways, and everything almost in chaos, except for the Tradeprinces keeping it all together).

Stuff like "francium", or "anti-matter" or "particle accelerators" doesn't really have a place, IMO. :/
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:56 PM   #191
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Aww..oh well, at least you considered it. And you're right of course - Goblins are crazy and zany and all this stuff we've discovered here, in this time and in this reality doesn't fit in with them. Thanks for considering my ideas though :)
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:08 PM   #192
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Yepps-er-tooties.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:22 AM   #193
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OK, well, I've decided to make my own all new race from scratch, no in game models at all (unless there are in game models of elephants with four huge tusks, 3 spikes on their head, a star ended trunk, and three claws on the back of their legs :P) I'm talking about the Norkred - a Bull-Elephant like people, which are non humanoid. I will start working on the Norkred seriously once the Dranei are 30-50% complete - I will also be adding all new lore to fit in with their existence, etc. Some of the things I have yet to decide are: Whether they are warlike, economical, brutish, mystical, stealthy or technilogical - and whether they are from another planet or Lordaeron, Azeroth, Khaz Modan or Quel'Thalas.
I will post concept art ASAP, for those who are curious as to what exactly they look like, etc.
And if you look in my signature, you will see that I will be working on Certain WC3 races in modern times or the Space Age.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:24 AM   #194
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Coolio.

*Norkred* - Well, whatever floats your boat. But I daresay that giant bull-elephants with spikes and claws and stuff would not be "stealthy" or "technological". Barely "mystical", either. They'd be brutish and stuff, but give them some wise features; like elderly shamans/elders that keep everyone peaceful (although when angered, they can really do some damage).
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:43 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrbi0
Coolio.

*Norkred* - Well, whatever floats your boat. But I daresay that giant bull-elephants with spikes and claws and stuff would not be "stealthy" or "technological". Barely "mystical", either. They'd be brutish and stuff, but give them some wise features; like elderly shamans/elders that keep everyone peaceful (although when angered, they can really do some damage).
Well, technological doesn't nesessarily mean guns 'n' mechs - it can also mean Clever contraptions 'n' armor (not so much the armor(And the star ended trunk is for better grip and to make things easier hold)) However I do agree with the mystical and stealthy parts, but that can be fixed - They don't all have to be big huge hulking beasts - and like you said, i can also have wise features like shamans and elders - the giant bull-elephant with spike and claws is just the initial idea. Nerubians - they are alot like spiders (physically) but still manage to be bulky and magical - not just stealthy, so I could achieve the same thing with the Norkred. :P (god, i just love that smiley)
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