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Old 02-21-2006, 06:53 PM   #16
TerranUp16
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TerranUp16 seems to be the reincarnation of Wormskull (-15)

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We're working on a flash site at the moment, and if you take the link on my sig that will bring you to our forums (I won't post the link here b/c WH will probably ban me for breaking 50 million rules).

What I will say about resources is that gold mines (not gold itself) are gone, as well as lumber (but trees will still play an important role). The system will be different from what many of you are accustomed to, but different in a good way. It will allow for all styles of play (from rushing to turtling, though noob turtling won't work, turtling will take a lot of skill), and will also be very, very deep. The depth in GTW will be greater than that of almost every game (not just mod) currently on shelves.

The focus of the mod is indeed more on melee than campaign, but we also fully intend to recruit the best mappers from their respective categories to create mod maps that will come with GTW (I, myself, will make the maul and the footmen wars-like map). We're hoping to have something for everyone in the mod. We're also contemplating extending offers to some campaigns to allow them to use our mod instead of WCIII (thus gaining our more advanced systems as well as our models), and they'd basically get a spot like the WCIII demo campaign got (placed in the custom campaigns section of the mod). We're not certain as to whether we wish to do that yet though, but we are considering it.

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Old 02-21-2006, 08:32 PM   #17
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This all sounds very nice but I've heard this song before... so many times. It doesn't end well usually. Still I have faith in you Terran.

As for the gathering system could you explain it a bit more? When you just say it sounds good, but there aren't any real proofs. I mean you could share your ideas we aren't all some stupid noobs trying to steal your ideas. Though I can't guarantee for everybody.

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Old 02-21-2006, 09:02 PM   #18
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You've no idea how much I wish to reveal facts and info about the resource system (a note that I'm calling it the resource system and not the gathering system should be a little hint), but I simply can't do so yet without fear of someone stealing it, for it's not hard to implement, but rather hard to think up.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:07 PM   #19
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Approved Map: Warlords[Quicksilver #2] - 1st Place

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerranUp16
The depth in GTW will be greater than that of almost every game (not just mod) currently on shelves.

Oh the huberis of he who hides behind secrecy. You won't release any details, I can guess, so we'll just have to take your word for the fact that you're better than the best professional minds in the business when it comes to making stuff, and can even do it without access to a proper programming language and a game engine built specifically for your systems?

I say you're being a wee bit arrogent there.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:34 PM   #20
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Depth has nothing to do with access to a proper programming language.

Depth merely has to do with the amount of strategy. While many current games have bounds of depth, they can only have so much, as they do not fully utilize stuff such as accuracy, or even physics. Someone once said that the features we're putting in are more like something you'd find in an RPG rather than an RTS. You know what I said? Good, b/c most RPGs are more realistic.

Now, I'll back-up a bit of what I'm saying. How do we plan to have so much depth?

Well, let's just start with physics. The only other game I've played to this date that used physics properly is DoW (when I say properly, I'm not speaking graphically). The physics have an effect. When the Imperial Guard fire a round of grenades, enemies scatter. We're looking to do something similar, although incorporating it on a larger scale. For instance, the Mountain King (one of the few Blizz heroes we're keeping, but he's got a sweet new model and skin) now has two variations of Thunder Clap. Both have physics. One is your standard version with physics. The other, he jumps into the air, and when he lands, he uses thunder clap (it's a little weaker though). Send enemies flying away from him, and does damage. Besides allowing him to entirely disorientate an enemy, he is now dealing with less enemies as the ones he hit before are busy recovering.

Another example of physics is that one hero will have an aura that randomly knocks down enemy units with wind gusts. Now, I'll admit that physics have more of an influence on tactics rather than strategy (tactics are the descisions made during a battle, strategy is the planning before). Artillery units and such will still use physics as well, and there will be plenty of other ways physics will factor heavily into your strategy.

Now, we can also take a look at accuracy. We're not just using accuracy, but rather a dual accuracy AND evasion system. Why both? Melee units have 100% accuracy, and evasion is essentially what controls accuracy then. Why does melee have 100% accuracy? If your enemy is just standing there and you swing your sword and miss, you're absolutely pathetic. Your enemy will have to do something to evade your attack. How does this factor in tactically? It gives melee units a bonus over ranged units, in that ranged units must now contend not just with their own accuracy, but the enemy's ability to evade. HP will also be much lower, so units will die faster and you'll see that the accuracy and evasion thing factors in heavily. It also gives new reason to use lighter and faster units. Don't forget that the 25% evasion bonus for moving units is still in effect.

Now, let's look at the backstab and shield systems. Shields only cover the front, but what if you wear it on the back? For those who've seen the WIP Axewielder model, you'll see the shield is on the back. That can actually be flipped between front and back. When it's on the back, the unit is not affected by backstab, and it takes normal damage. When it's on the front, the unit is still vulnerable to backstab (2x damage), but can block more of the damage that comes in front. More reason to get your footmen to face forward. You actually have to think about that now.

We're also going to allow certain units to crawl. Crawling will give the crawling unit an accuracy bonus, and decrease the accuracy of enemy units targeting it. Crawling will also make the unit less-visible, and we're still trying to figure-out how to better implement that aspect of it.

Back to the Axewielder (such an interesting unit really). It will also be able to scale walls or cliffs with a difference of +1 (+1 is the cliff height). This will be vital in the first mission of the campaign, but it will also make a rather large difference in a lot of melee maps. I'm not going to waste your time expanding on this, for the benefits of being able to do such are rather obvious, but remember that only one of your unit types can, and it's relatively low on the tech tree! More choices, more depth!

I just merely scratched the surface with that (and look how long this post is!). Once I reveal the resource system, you'll see how that factors in and increases the depth bounlessly. There's also another top-secret system that I think a lot of you guys will really like, and it will also do a lot for the depth as well. There's also some faction-specific stuff (looking to give each faction a bonus of some kind, and not the crappy AoE bonuses, real bonuses).

Feel free to ask questions about how any of the combat systems, or a few of the others I've revealed, will work. I'll even provide some examples and hypothetical situations if you want.

And now to make a long post even longer... more graphical pleasure:


Model and Skin by P!nS

We're going to replace the weapon with something a little better-looking, but the one he has now is what it will be like.

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Old 02-21-2006, 10:24 PM   #21
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Ugly icon borders. Aside from that, no major issues.
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Old 02-22-2006, 12:10 AM   #22
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@Terran is there a ETA(Estimated time of arrival) on your alpha or betas, I would like to test this out.
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Old 02-22-2006, 12:22 AM   #23
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I'm hoping to start closed alpha (team only) in three months. Semi-open Alpha I hope to have open by 4 (we invite a select few people to play the mod with the team). I've no current timetable for beta or final release. We continue to gain new volunteers daily though, and we thank them all for their help and excellent work; they should help move the mod along much faster than previously thought (we're finally starting to get a grasp on our animating problem, but could still use some more structure and doodad modelers, as well as 1-2 more JASSers).

Also, although we're not quite ready for it yet, I wish to announce a new program specially designed for terrainers. We call it "all-star terraining". Basically, I'm going to have some sketches of melee maps, and any terrainer can volunteer to turn that concept into a GTW melee map. We can't guarentee that your map won't be edited before it's finalized, as some may not be good enough to make it into the mod as-is and then our terrainers will simply polish them up a bit. Anyways, for those of you this affects, feel free to begin considering it. We're currently working on creating the doodads for the Azeroth tileset. If you'd like to help with creating doodads for us, please pm me! Thx.


Having to edit this instead of making a new post is going to make this rather stupid and unviewed... but here's the new Forest Troll UI:
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Skin by P!nS
Model by Jigrael

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Old 02-22-2006, 04:11 PM   #24
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And you've tested these systems, they work, and there is no problem with performance? Also, most of the stuff you put in there is not unique. In fact, I've been developing a system that I think is more realistic in a few ways for quite a while - and that's just been developing the system, rather than a finished product. In terms of the accuracy and evasion, and low hp, I think I had that covered years ago.

However, I haven't included back attacks, and avoid knockback abilities, because of the fact that they tend to decrease performance significantly (though at some point I would have added them if they had turned out to be feasable; my system has a lot of influence from Total War games).

Since you say depth has nothing to do with access to a programming language, then I don't think you really know what you are talking about, since depth is heavily dependant upon things happening on each and every attack. If you don't have an engine built specifically for that, it has to be done by scripts, which are slower and less efficient, and so limits what you can do. Since you haven't even got to alpha stage yet, you don't know yet whether or not it will run on anything lower than a 3ghz processor with 1gb of ram.

So don't claim to have so much more depth than commercial games (which, by the way, you obviously haven't compared to true real time strategy games such as the total war series or the close combat series, but to real time clicking games such as WC3 melee, which don't go for depth and strategy).
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Old 02-22-2006, 06:25 PM   #25
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I have the physics system now, and I can tell you that it is completely lag-free. Zero performance decrease. Also, I didn't say that any single system was new, rather that all of them together are, and combine pretty well. And our physics are not, as noted before, just knockback effects. Rather, these are at least of the quality of those in BFME 2 (I've got the beta and demo).

Anyways, we seem to be speaking of two different kinds of depth... you're speaking of depth as in how real something is vs how deep, strategically, something is.

Also, I'm not saying no one has used low HP, Accuracy, and Evasion before. In fact, I don't think I ever said these were new ideas. It's really just a lot of stuff combined to make a fun, and strategically deep experience.

You realize ghz means very little b/c my AMD 64 3500+ (which operates at like 2.2ghz) is a lot faster than an Intel 32 3.2ghz processor...

Anyways, no, we can't say that, but, from what we've seen so far, I'd be shocked if the specs rose above 1.5ghz. You just might need to actually set your graphics to low (mock horror).
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Old 02-22-2006, 07:00 PM   #26
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The physics system may not cause performance problems, but combine that with all the other triggers, and a sizable number of units? You may wish to note that Ghz means quite a lot, but you're comparing a 64 bit processor with a 32 bit processor.

How much testing have you actually done to see how it plays (both technically and in terms of gameplay)? Because from what I can see, you aren't really encouraging any additional strategy (flanking isn't going to be any more effective, as back attacks don't simulate the effects, you don't seem to have a moral system, you haven't said anything about stuff like armour piercing, something to make massing not always the best option; the stuff which makes strategies possible).
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:09 AM   #27
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My apologies for that. The Forest Trolls and High Elves actually make a killing off of guerilla warfare (pardon the pun). Don't want to spoil the fun too much there yet though.

As for morale, I thought about it, but ultimately decided it would hurt the game instead of better it.

I'm also waiting to do some real testing in the alpha build before making a final decision on flanking, b/c with the combination of the backstab and shield bonuses, flanking may be unnecessary (shields only cover in front). If it is deemed necessary though, we will make all efforts to impliment it in the best possible manner.

Feel free, if you want, to ask me for more information about any area you'd like to know more about. I'll either dismiss it for the moment, retaining its secrecy, or I'll write you a book on it (as my team members are always so fond of saying).
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:53 PM   #28
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So you have actually done some testing? With how many of the systems actually in place?
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Old 02-23-2006, 05:06 PM   #29
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Aye, I've done some testing with the limited stuff I've got. Basically, atm I've had the evasion, accuracy, physics, and backstab functioning all in the same map, and I purposely put a lot of units in (the accuracy one was old, and we're going to fix it up). No lag, even with the old accuracy and a lot of units, so that's good at least. Those were all like pre-alpha of all those as well, so no lag is pretty good.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:33 PM   #30
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Heh i tested the Physicas system. Its funny to see a sorceress Get blown into the air. Aye terran when they fall over they should stay on the ground and then get up not fall and get up atomatically kinda dumb. If i fell from a 2 story building it would take me alot longer to get up.
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