Community Map

[cohadar]

@Anitarf

The only successful random spell map in the history of wc3 is: hoihoi8s Custom Hero Survival

I suggest you play it a couple of times to see why it is popular.
Also I suggest you play other random spell maps to see why they failed.
(search for "random" or "custom" on http://www.mapgnome.org)

I have decided to go after the undead theme after I played a dozen of those failed ones.

Also you really need a more detailed game idea than just: lets make random hero spells.

I wish you all the best.

[Anitarf]

That's not really a random spell map, though. It lets you choose your spells, rather than giving you random spells.

I'll look at it anyway, thanks for the recommendation.

[HerrStanev]

Just played it, it's interesting but you need max 10 spells to win (had Hex and Sleep at first for crowd control, then switched to Cleave [splash damage being pure is just GG], Crit, Roar [+800% dmg wtf] and Mirror Image and other irrelevant summons for tankiness. The other spells are just useless... Plus, there were Heroes with Chaos damage, which is completely overpowered.

[Anitarf]

Originally Posted by HerrStanev

Are you sure you want random spells for a defence? There needs to be some sort of categorisation at least. It kinda limits the types of spells that can be created just because they have to fit every character when picked at random...

I'm sorry for the late reply, I didn't notice this post earlier.

The point of this map is to not worry too much about what fits, but to enable community members to easily make contributions. For example: cohadar wanted to make things fit more so he came up with a theme for his map. I don't like this particular theme so I don't really feel motivated to make any heroes for it. By trying to make things fit, the potential number of contributions to the map has been decreased. I wish to avoid this so I want to make a map where people can more freely choose what to make.

Now, it is possible that people might think that a map where things don't fit together is not worth making, in which case my reasoning above doesn't work out. However, I think it can be a fun map to play even if it is a bit of a mess, but more importantly I think it can be a fun map to make.

[shadowvzs]

Originally Posted by Anitarf

I'm sorry for the late reply, I didn't notice this post earlier.

The point of this map is to not worry too much about what fits, but to enable community members to easily make contributions. For example: cohadar wanted to make things fit more so he came up with a theme for his map. I don't like this particular theme so I don't really feel motivated to make any heroes for it. By trying to make things fit, the potential number of contributions to the map has been decreased. I wish to avoid this so I want to make a map where people can more freely choose what to make.

Now, it is possible that people might think that a map where things don't fit together is not worth making, in which case my reasoning above doesn't work out. However, I think it can be a fun map to play even if it is a bit of a mess, but more importantly I think it can be a fun map to make.

hehe could be funny if someone create a map what at map start could select u want TD/Tag/Arena/Rpg kinda of map, could create with trigger different interface/tree, village, pathblocker,base on map and enable different triggers depend on player 1 selection :D

[HerrStanev]

@shadow
That's just too much work, better just create separate maps.

@Anitarf
I'm personally interested in the idea but you should put some key points on what to start working on. Your map has no plan at the moment. :D
Maybe make a new thread to discuss Hero types, items, waves, map layout, game goals, etc.

[Rao Dao Zao]

Originally Posted by HerrStanev

@Anitarf
I'm personally interested in the idea but you should put some key points on what to start working on. Your map has no plan at the moment. :D
Maybe make a new thread to discuss Hero types, items, waves, map layout, game goals, etc.

Hehe, we keep discussing this in IRC and then never posting it.

The general plan seems to be a "hero siege" (not that I've ever played one, so I may still be misunderstanding) -- heroes attack along a path against waves of enemies to defeat a spawner/boss at the end. This will repeat for a number of different areas, against increasingly more powerful spawns/bosses/etc.

With this basic format, there is a lot of scope for community involvement: the paths and the spawns of each round, their terrain, the spawners/bosses at the end, the heroes, the abilities, items... While also maintaining a fairly simple concept that can be developed quickly and painlessly.

Anitarf can correct me if I am wrong.

[cohadar]

Been there, done that. (gotta love cheese movie quotes )

You people are describing 4vsUndead

The map is open source, you can just continue developing it, I won't mind.

[Anitarf]

Originally Posted by cohadar

Been there, done that. (gotta love cheese movie quotes )

You people are describing 4vsUndead

There are some minor but significant conceptual differences. The design proposed here is a lot more forgiving as players can advance at their own leisure since they have to fight their way to the boss, rather than the boss coming at them after a fixed number of spawns.

Then there is the whole random skill system.

Originally Posted by HerrStanev

I'm personally interested in the idea but you should put some key points on what to start working on. Your map has no plan at the moment. :D
Maybe make a new thread to discuss Hero types, items, waves, map layout, game goals, etc.

Some of that has already been posted earlier in the thread, but as Rao pointed out likely not everything so his last post is a good place to start.

Since the hero skills get randomly assigned, any hero can get any skill. Therefore, hero design is limited to picking a model and soundset and assigning a fitting set of attributes to it. If hero designers want, we can also allow a simple innate ability for each hero.

In terms of map layout, the demo map I posted earlier has a very rough outline. It is probably wider than the final paths will be, I made it that way so terrainers have more room to work in so the final terrain doesn't have to be a straight corridor (but there's nothing wrong if it is). The path that is currently covered in grass is probably sufficiently long for two levels, I just made it a single level in the demo map because I was testing the waypoint engine. There's enough room for about 3 levels in the current 64*64 map, maybe 4 if the terrainers are economical with space, once it is resized to 128*128 there should be enough room for 15-ish levels which is plenty. I don't really see the map having more than 10 levels.

Each level consists of continuously spawned enemies and a boss (or bosses) spawning them. In its simplest form this could just be a spawning building. Levels have to scale with the number of players, either by having one spawner boss per player or by multiplying the life and/or damage of the enemies by the number of players. Ideally, the levels should be connected so that the whole game is one long winding path with possible shortcuts back to the starting shops.

Some spawn/boss combinations I have thought of are spiders/spider queen, murlocs/murloc huts, skeletons/necromancer, (corrupted)treants/ancient, elementals/wizard...

I'll probably start a separate thread soon where I can more easily compile all this information in the first post.

[Kyrbi0]

I still have issue with wholly randomly assigned skill-sets for heroes.

A highSTR/lowINT 'melee tank' hero could be given 4 mana-heavy abilities, and be able to use one a turn; then the highINT/lowSTR 'ranged caster' could be given all these passives, and have one dinky spell to use over and over (and the passives, while beneficial, probably do much more good on a warrior anyway).

I wouldn't mind (and perhaps others as well) being given a list of spells and a list of heroes and matching them up in a reasonable fashion... At least, if I was restricted to just that, it would be an interesting challenge. :P

[Anitarf]

Originally Posted by Kyrbi0

I still have issue with wholly randomly assigned skill-sets for heroes.

A highSTR/lowINT 'melee tank' hero could be given 4 mana-heavy abilities, and be able to use one a turn; then the highINT/lowSTR 'ranged caster' could be given all these passives, and have one dinky spell to use over and over (and the passives, while beneficial, probably do much more good on a warrior anyway).

That's just the luck of the draw and a part of the challenge. It's one of the reasons I opted for the more forgiving game architecture since it allows weaker hero designs to compete as well by spending more time grinding on each wave.

Besides, the scenarios you describe are rare. In most cases, a hero will get a mix of low and high mana abilities and then learn those that fit their attributes. Keep in mind that out of the four normal skills a hero has they can spend most of the game learning just three while ignoring the one that fits them least. Furthermore, players can compensate for mana or life deficiencies with items; it would obviously suck if the game was unbeatable because none of the heroes got a healing ability, so there will definitely be healing potions available; add mana potions to that and I think what you describe is no longer an issue.

[Anitarf]

Okay, I started a new thread for the Random Defence map project. The first post contains a summary of the map's design specifications as well as the latest version of the map file itself.

[shadowvzs]

so much skillfull coder, why dont make somebody a RPG where u can do more thing with more insine idea and system solutions?

[Anitarf]

Originally Posted by shadowvzs

so much skillfull coder, why dont make somebody a RPG where u can do more thing with more insine idea and system solutions?

We'd never finish an RPG with our activity levels.

[Ignitedstar]

Making anything remotely close to an RPG takes so much time, you have no idea. We would never even get to a finishing point and get stuck somewhere in between. I would know! Haha... but seriously, none of us don't have the commitment to do a project at that level. Hundreds to thousands of hours get poured into making RPGs. They get very little of the respect they deserve.

It also wouldn't work in the general guidelines of the project to make an RPG either. A good RPG (just good-- not even getting to great) requires carefully thought out systems that compliment one another. Then you have to work within the limits of those systems-- you can't easily add stuff. Being able to add things easily seems to be the point in this project and it doesn't have to be something too complicated. If you want to make just a spell, then you can make just a spell. You don't have to make an entire hero that requires crap tons of gameplay balancing.

Then the balancing... It's pretty much impossible to balance anything. "Balance" is a very subjective term, too. I'm sure we've all heard one guy say that a particular spell is too overpowered while another group says that the exact spell would become too useless if made weaker. Then they would bring up checks and counters and the flame wars... blah blah blah too much stuff to think about it. It starts hurting your head.

"Insane" ideas aren't always practical. Things may sound great on paper, but it's only when it has been implemented when the real flaws start showing up.