wc3campaigns
WC3C Homepage - www.wc3c.netUser Control Panel (Requires Log-In)Engage in discussions with other users and join contests in the WC3C forums!Read one of our many tutorials, ranging in difficulty from beginner to advanced!Show off your artistic talents in the WC3C Gallery!Download quality models, textures, spells (vJASS/JASS), systems, and scripts!Download maps that have passed through our rigorous approval process!

Go Back   Wc3C.net > Warcraft III Modding > Project Discussion > Project Recruitment
User Name
Password
Register Rules Get Hosted! Chat Pastebin FAQ and Rules Members List Calendar



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-15-2011, 03:59 AM   #46
cohadar
master of fugue
 
cohadar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,453

Submissions (5)

cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by holyadvocate
Bollocks to that man, I never learned JASS just because of that sort of stuff. Right now I can do all sorts of stuff in GUI that I was told was impossible by all sorts of JASS coders.

Fact is, the GUI has less limits than you understand. You have to be creative and smart to figure it out but lad, it's very rewarding and the visual aspects help ADD visually oriented kids like me.
No, sorry, you are not allowed to do comparison of two things unless you know both.
I personally believe that people never learn jass because of fear of failure.
Fact is that no person who learned jass ever went back to GUI coding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holyadvocate
Warrior Priest - Generic healing hammer wielding paladin
Game already has a paladin, and it needs no visually-oriented-too-lazy-to-even-try kids like you. You get the double meaning right?
__________________
Omg database crash deleted my signature, as a side effect this immensely improved wc3c.
cohadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links - Login to hide this ad!
Old 12-18-2011, 08:11 AM   #47
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cohadar
You can take Avatar for a Dwarf if you think of a good ulty for Paladin.
Also note that bash on paladin is triggered (you can bash bosses when hero is in avatar form)

Tranquility with altered FX.

I will now double post to annoy cohadar!
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 08:16 AM   #48
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default Dwarf Draft 2

Hero: Dwarf
Model: Mountain King

Innate: Thunder Smash - melee range low damage skill that stuns the target
Stormbolt - generic storm bolt that knocksback the target
Hammerfall - leap to target aoe and deal damage and knockback
Brewzer - gain 50% drunken brawler for a short duration
Ultimate: Avatar - generic ladder avatar

ID: dw
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 08:27 AM   #49
cohadar
master of fugue
 
cohadar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,453

Submissions (5)

cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Here-b-Trollz
Tranquility with altered FX.
A dummy casted tranquility with altered FX.
Spell can be called Holy Ground.

FX can be energy field model:
Doodads\Cinematic\EnergyField\EnergyField.mdl
(nice purple shiny things coming out of the ground.)
__________________
Omg database crash deleted my signature, as a side effect this immensely improved wc3c.
cohadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 08:43 AM   #50
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default

Right but does that Dwarf draft work?
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 08:58 AM   #51
cohadar
master of fugue
 
cohadar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,453

Submissions (5)

cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Here-b-Trollz
Hero: Dwarf
Model: Mountain King

Innate: Thunder Smash - melee range low damage skill that stuns the target
Stormbolt - generic storm bolt that knocksback the target
Hammerfall - leap to target aoe and deal damage and knockback
Brewzer - gain 50% drunken brawler for a short duration
Ultimate: Avatar - generic ladder avatar

ID: dw

Innates can be shared between multiple heroes so:

Just use the bash, Both paladin and Dwarf can bash because they both have hammer, and the bash icon is a hammer falling dawn icon, it is logical,
it is consistent with default wc3 and it is simply easy to do.
In fact just copy both bash and avatar skills from paladin onto dwarf.
Then I will create new ulty for paladin when I get the time. (you can also if you want)

Stormbolt - Ok

Hammerfall - Ok

Brewzer - Ok
Use frenzy spell for this with zeroed data, and attach some nice animations to buff.
Make sure this spell is on location (1, 2).
This way when you add brewzer to hero you do not have to hide it but it can use the empty (1, 1) location above the Brewzer ability.
Make sure to create nice tooltip for drunken brawler passive too.

(1, 1) location on all heroes is reserved for buff added abilities.
This way a buff can also temporarily add active ability to hero!

Ultimate - Ok

ID is NOT OK.
You did not read the documentation did you, you double posting s.. o. a b....
__________________
Omg database crash deleted my signature, as a side effect this immensely improved wc3c.
cohadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 09:12 AM   #52
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default

I'm what you might call 'functionally illiterate'. So I can't really be held accountable for failure to read the documentation. Anyway I'm done mostly and stuff. Probably will update all the id's and tooltips and everything in a later version. This is a real-time 'living' project, right?
Attached Files
File Type: w3x (4)vsUndead plusDwarf.w3x (274.7 KB, 2 views)
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.

Last edited by Here-b-Trollz : 12-18-2011 at 04:25 PM.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 12:55 PM   #53
cohadar
master of fugue
 
cohadar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,453

Submissions (5)

cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)

Default

Omg do not quote the whole post if you post right after it...

I really like both Stormbolt and Hammerfall.
They play nice in game and they just look great.

Brewzer sounds good on paper but is a disaster when you try it in game.
It is just not believable.
Dwarf has too static animations for his evasion to be 'realistic'
and critical effects make him play his cleave power attack which is bad because it should be used for something else.

Thunder Strike is a disaster too because it has a hammer icon but it plays a cleaver attack animation (left hand attack).

Ok so we have 3 spells finished, 2 to go.

Here are some ideas:
innate can be a default critical strike ability!
And get this: Dwaf ALWAYS attacks with his cleaver when he criticals.
So: we can call it cleaver strike
Give it this icon: BTNMoonStone.blp (only blue thing in wc3 that looks like cleaver) (make a passive version with wc3borderizer)

Now Brewzers effect can be to temporarily level up cleaver strike to level 2!
There you go, two very simple spells to implement that work together.
Spell synergy ftw.

Btw hammerfall should really play hammer strike animation (index 10) before dwarf hits the ground, without animation he just looks like he was impaled in the air.

This is a newer version of Anim trigger, replace it before doing animation testing. (check dwarf index 3 animation, great to go with brewzer)
Collapse JASS:
//===========================================================================
//  Displays animations of currently selected unit
//===========================================================================
scope Anim initializer Init

//===========================================================================
private function Actions takes nothing returns nothing
    local integer i = 0
    local unit u = Test_GetSelectedUnit()
    if u==null then
        call Message_Debug("No unit is selected.") 
    else   
        loop
            exitwhen i>12
            call SetUnitAnimationByIndex(u,i)
            call TextTag_Unit(u, I2S(i), "|cffffffff")
            call TriggerSleepAction(2.)
            set i = i + 1
        endloop
    endif
endfunction

//===========================================================================
private function Init takes nothing returns nothing
    call Test_CreateChatTrigger("-anim", true, function Actions)
endfunction

endscope

Btw Storm Hammer ability can be ultimate.
A bolt of lightning from the sky that empowers dwarfs hammer with lightning attack.
Doodads\Cinematic\Lightningbolt\Lightningbolt.mdl
(To me this is much more logical than avatar, but I will not force it)
__________________
Omg database crash deleted my signature, as a side effect this immensely improved wc3c.
cohadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 04:42 PM   #54
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cohadar
Thunder Strike is a disaster too because it has a hammer icon but it plays a cleaver attack animation (left hand attack).
What about using Spirit Walker Adept Training (Killmaim) for the icon and calling it Thunder Axe? And I actually wanted to do something other than stun, something more lightningy. Purge works thematically but is sort of liek "lolwat" unless... it's straight move debuff. Which probably works? Other possibilities include Chain Lightning and Forked Lightning.

Quote:
Now Brewzers effect can be to temporarily level up cleaver strike to level 2!
There you go, two very simple spells to implement that work together.
Spell synergy ftw.
Or maybe HP regen + critical strike

Quote:
Btw hammerfall should really play hammer strike animation (index 10) before dwarf hits the ground, without animation he just looks like he was impaled in the air.
I wanted to do this but I wasn't sure if that would be trying too hard.

Quote:
Btw Storm Hammer ability can be ultimate.
A bolt of lightning from the sky that empowers dwarfs hammer with lightning attack.
Doodads\Cinematic\Lightningbolt\Lightningbolt.mdl
(To me this is much more logical than avatar, but I will not force it)
Well dwarf has this whole Avatar skin going for it that the paladin doesn't... it's probably better for him...
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 05:33 PM   #55
Anitarf
Procrastination Incarnate


Development Director
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,028

Submissions (19)

Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)Anitarf has a brilliant future (883)

2008 Spell olympics - Fire - SilverApproved Map: Old School Alliance TacticsHero Contest #2 - 3rd PlaceSpell making session 2 winner

Default

Sorry, this is a tangent but I wanted to comment on this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohadar
Now Brewzers effect can be to temporarily level up cleaver strike to level 2!
There you go, two very simple spells to implement that work together.
Spell synergy ftw.
I wouldn't really call that synergy. When one ability explicitly does something special to another ability, that's more of a spell combo. Synergy is when two independent spells work well together. Breath of Fire and Drunken Haze are a combo, Banish and Flamestrike have synergy.

I guess you could also call either of those examples a combo or a synergy, it's not really wrong, but I feel it's important to make a distinction between the two because design-wise I find combos to be inferior to synergies.

Combos are explicitly stated for you while synergies are implicit which allows players to "discover" them on their own which feels good even though deep down you know the author already intended
for you to use the two abilities together.

The explicit combo effect also represents an additional item in the tooltip of the spell. This is what makes spells seem complicated, long lists of effects they have.

Combos can't be easily made to work between heroes since you'd need to be referencing an ability that the player may not even know about which is just confusing. I think this is important, you are after all making a team game. Combos and synergies on a single hero don't really matter, the players can learn pretty much all available skills anyway so they're going to get the synergy automatically, no real thought required, whereas synergies between heroes are subject to players' hero choices and their ability to play as a team and as such actually matter.
__________________
Anitarf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 06:09 PM   #56
Here-b-Trollz
Corkscrew Chainsaw!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711

Here-b-Trollz has a spectacular aura about (149)

Hero Contest #2 - 2nd Place

Default

Okay, made the spells do uber damage, made Brewzer give massive hp regen that increases with level up, changed the icon for the innate to Killmaim, touched up the tooltips and changed the ID from 'dw' to '6w'.

Things to do (not counting whatever lame cohadary 'improvements' are required):
- Make hammerfall not targetable outside of current map (not sure how you want to do this since just moving the unit back at the end isn't the same)
- Balance
Attached Files
File Type: w3x (4)vsUndead plusDwarf v2.w3x (275.9 KB, 2 views)
__________________
By reading this signature, you agree that I cannot be held accountable for anything that I might say or do.
Here-b-Trollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 11:27 PM   #57
cohadar
master of fugue
 
cohadar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,453

Submissions (5)

cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)cohadar is a jewel in the rough (246)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Here-b-Trollz
What about using Spirit Walker Adept Training (Killmaim) for the icon and calling it Thunder Axe?
And I actually wanted to do something other than stun, something more lightningy.
Purge works thematically but is sort of liek "lolwat" unless... it's straight move debuff.
Which probably works? Other possibilities include Chain Lightning and Forked Lightning.

Some hero design standards:
Innate on an INT hero may or may not be active.
Innate on a STR hero must be passive.
It feels strange to have STR hero with 5 spells and no pasives.

Just try the modified critical + brewzer leveling I suggested earlier.
It may not be very special but you will see it works perfectly in game.
If you don't like that and would like to use an active spell with power cleave animation,
than that spell cannot be innate, put it instead of brewzer and think on some new innate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Here-b-Trollz
- Make hammerfall not targetable outside of current map (not sure how you want to do this since just moving the unit back at the end isn't the same)
udg_Dungeon[GetActiveDungeon()] will give you current dungeon region.

Hammerfall looks much better now.
Btw, I must reccomend you for keeping with the maps coding style,
I also noticed you fixed some comments, good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anitarf
The explicit combo effect also represents an additional item in the tooltip of the spell. This is what makes spells seem complicated, long lists of effects they have.

That is why I would like to show passive icons for passive abilities added by buffs. (my earlier talk about icon locations)
That way buff spell tooltip can be shorter and passive can explain itself in its own tooltip. Besides it is much easier to notice a new icon in your UI than some invisible effects you gain through combat (for example 25% attack speed increase), this gives player assurance that spell is working as intended.

And I agree synergies are more quality than combos, that is why it is harder to think of one.

As for synergies between heroes I have no explicit plans with that.
(Except making lots of heroes and letting players find their own ways to cheat the game )
__________________
Omg database crash deleted my signature, as a side effect this immensely improved wc3c.
cohadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:23 PM.


Donate

Affiliates
The Hubb http://bylur.com - Warcraft, StarCraft, Diablo and DotA Blog & Forums The JASS Vault Clan WEnW Campaign Creations Clan CBS GamesModding Flixreel Videos

Powered by vBulletin (Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd).
Hosted by www.OICcam.com
IT Support and Services provided by Executive IT Services