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-   -   (1) When the Freedom Slips Away (http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=82497)

Lich_Apprentice 05-25-2006 11:24 PM

A couple of things:

A came across a major error. I traveled all the way up until the cinematic with Pyrenes. The only problem was I received a hero death message as I was entering the north western side, fighting the first pack of wolves. He didn't appear in the cinematic and when that was done, there was nothing for me to kill to finish the quest. I was found in a state of disappointment.

Secondly, I don't really agree with the title. The only part where "When the Freedom Slips Away" title could have fit in was when the Murloc was enslaving the workers. Yes, I do realize that Pyrenes was influencing the people colonizing, but I expected to see a hero who was defending peasants and fighting against nobility and the king. Maybe it has something to do with the ending?

Tim. 05-25-2006 11:36 PM

This time I was prepared, so I did no need to repair the base and cause the error mentioned above. Here is a list of the issues I noticed:
  • Although I can understand why you wanted to use the music (The way the lyrics tie with the plot and such), it is very repetitive and should only be used at certain points in small amounts, then played in its entirety during the final cinematic.
  • I liked how the sound played when you attacked something, this was a nice touch. However it also fired when I attacked my own units. Isn’t that a little silly?
  • Please preload the abilities and models, the lag when I first whip out an ability is annoying (Especially since you get a whole new ability set halfway through).
  • Why is the healing fountain called the Barman? Certainly Bartender makes more sense. Also, why do you have to build a Barman? Perhaps build the bar stand and then have the Bartender appear in front of the closest barracks and walk to the bar.
  • Why did a Barman suddenly appear in a formerly ogre inhabited cave when a portal to the beyond opened and the cave was blocked? He went for a piggyback ride with Henrick just before the cave closed itself? Maybe try to make a logical reason for him being there.
  • The abilities were very powerful. This is great if you’re someone like me who really doesn’t like killing 7 wolves individually, but being able to kill a giant mass of super-powered units with an default Blizzard ability with a huge range, 1000 damage, and 7 second cooldown is a bit much. Likewise for the 16 target, 350 damage Chain Lightning.
  • While on the topic of abilities, all of the abilities were just modified War3 abilities. I think such a map could benefit from some custom abilities - especially because of the custom art you, being a modeler, could add to them.
  • Add a hero glow to Henrick please, he’s a hero after all. Same goes for the evil Captain guy. (I liked how he had an inverted portrait!) Also it would be nice if you could add attachment points to the boat and just attach the Captain and Commander to them so that they moved up and down with the boat during the cinematic.
  • You could see the edge of the sea in cinematics and in-game. This looks very unprofessional, and I suggest what you do is make the map much larger, then just change in the WE the playable map size to the current size. Then when Cinematic mode is turned on you will see a giant ocean in all directions (fog would be great!)
  • I agree with Dor about the Lord Kirby thing. The name Kirby has too many goofy associations with it to be an effective name in such a game.
I truly did enjoy the game, the plot was easy to follow and open enough that you were not feeling pushed around all the time (The Scholar and other side quests for example.) However everything seemed to happen so fast, and the game seemed too short. I would have preferred more character building, and a better sense of time.

This map has my approval in its current state (assuming the Fatal Error mentioned is fixed), however I highly suggest the issues I mentioned be taken care of.

Rao Dao Zao 05-26-2006 09:18 AM

In no particular order (:emote_grin:):

I've never come accross the fatal error with repairing the base; but it's necessary to stop people from fixing it during the tower defence and I can't disable repair altogether or else the towers would be unbuildable; I couldn't think of a way to stop them (issuing order stop just didn't work for some reason) short of removing and adding the ability again. I'll look into it.

I had thought that I'd taken care of all that times Pyraeus died against the wolves; obviously not, I'll look into it.

On the subject of preloading, I've never really got it to work. It can be done with just placing all the models on the map and then removing them, yes?

The abilities are super-powerful because I wanted to keep the pace up. There have been a few complaints about the blizzard-variant, I may consider changing it.

You're not supposed to attack your own units, you ninny! :emote_wink: Humm, a quick condition should sort that.

No hero glow for Henrik. He's just an ordinary soldier with a flair for magic. I hate hero glow too. I only didn't remove it from all the other heroes because it would gratuitously add another 400Kb or so to the map.

The edge of the map being visible is a hangover from its earliest conception; the map had to be very small because I was running on minimum system and all that. Not a problem anymore, but I'd still like to honour that, bizarre as it sounds.

Kirby is a perfectly legitimate surname and it will not be changed.

Overall, seems positive, I'll take a look into all this stuff and see what can be done. :emote_thumbup:

Tim. 05-26-2006 01:54 PM


Originally Posted by Rao Dao Zao
On the subject of preloading, I've never really got it to work. It can be done with just placing all the models on the map and then removing them, yes?

That is one way, yes. You can also use triggers (You have to use triggers for the spells and effects)


Originally Posted by Rao Dao Zao
There have been a few complaints about the blizzard-variant, I may consider changing it.

I hope you do, it would really improve the quality.


Originally Posted by Rao Dao Zao
Not a problem anymore, but I'd still like to honour that, bizarre as it sounds.

Well of course you are entitled to do as you wish, however fixing it would take only half a minute and it would greatly improve how the map looks and feels.

On another note I forgot to mention I loved the terrain, great work.

CaptainPicard 05-26-2006 04:24 PM

Well, since you made a campaign-style map I wanted to see what ideas others were bringing to the table. However, I noticed a lot of problems.

At the start, the game is actually fairly hard seeing as you've only got melee guys, the footmen get damaged very easily and don't heal well, and there's no way to rapidly heal anything. The fact that the screeps respawn right next to you, on the screen, is a bit irritating (I've got respawning creeps, no doubt, but they're much more animated and in any case they don't appear right on top of you).

The pathing was difficult--not too easy to move about the various passages on the map, although the terrain wasn't bad.

I didn't care for the constant buffoonery of the guys farting and demanding beer.

The cinematics need more animation; you're moving the camera, true, but so slowly that it almost feels like the cameraman has been drinking all the beer that the footmen are looking for while he's trying to hold the lens steady.

The music is horrible--and I see I'm in good company on that statement.

There's hardly any room to make your base. And, then, I'm supposed to defend it with towers? I suppose it's not some fatal bug, but you moved Henrik inexplicably to a shallow-water beach below the base, right as you set the tower defense quest. None of that makes sense, and it makes the game a lot less fun.

Ho-hum. The story seems depthy, at least--you've done good work there. Execution is what's needed.

Rao Dao Zao 05-26-2006 05:47 PM

As I have said before, I will stand by every production decision so far. Your gripes are a matter of taste.

Tim. 05-27-2006 12:19 PM

How soon can we expect an update? As in should I move this to Map/Campaign Projects or hold it here?

Rao Dao Zao 05-27-2006 03:46 PM

Hold it here a little longer, I suppose. The only development is bugfixing.

Werewulf 06-06-2006 09:34 AM

i loved it..although when i went to the portal the guy killed me and i didnt make a single save..
but the music was weird but alright, even on my first shot of the game i tolerted it well, actually i didnt notice it much, i think it blended well with the humour of the soldiers and plot..
and that villager..."the gods are pissing on us", thats a classic.
i loved it!

PipeDream 06-25-2006 03:20 AM

Applause! You've set a new bar in warcraft writing. Finally.
Weak points:
- Please encourage us to save often =) Since the game is focused on a story I don't want to replay it.
- Music is a special effect and should be used sparingly.
- Hero defense was rather boring. You might spice it up with an air assault. Have zeppelins rush in, drop their units behind the front line, before running as they get shot down by the towers.
- There were a few fractures in continuity.
-- At the end of the invasion of Errbrueck, you jump from attacking the rax to chasing Lord Scheisen on the other side of the map. You might make it flow better by showing Scheisen running past Henrik in town first.
-- After the hero defense bit, it jumps to the two at 100% in the field. The 100% is wacky as is the abrupt cut. At the last attack, you could give Henrik a reason to run back. Maybe he needs to fetch a catapult, healing scroll or tell Lord Kirby they're winning/losing/status. Then halfway Balthasar, who has been sneaking around like the dick he is, jumps Henrik.

This is about where I died, so maybe I'm way off the mark about this. Anyway, meeting Pyraeus is rather awkward. So much is revealed so fast. The foreshadowing of the mysterious stranger doesn't really match up with this crazy looking incorporeal dude. You could do it more directly: perhaps a glimpse on a hill or in the background during a cinematic. Then when you do meet him, perhaps you just overhear him discussing with his minions or casting spells. Alternatively you could go whole hog and have him monologue, that might fit with your theme better.

Awesome job. I heartily approve.

Tim. 06-25-2006 04:34 PM

That’s three, you’re in! Congratulations, RDZ; I’m still looking forward to the next version though.

Rao Dao Zao 06-26-2006 12:35 PM

... FINALLY! Thank you PipeDream, your cash is in the post-- Ahem.

Don't want to encourage people to do anything; hence no feature lists, no advertising; just story. I want people to actually get into this, not for all those bitties, but just because.

Hero defence, I suppose you mean defending Thirlmir? I'll tell you why they can't have an air drop - they don't have air technology. Have you not seen the world-conquering "boat" at the Errsbruck harbour? :P

The chasing Scheisen across the map after the barracks falls is implicit; and remember, the island is tiny. Adding any extra little bits in there would disrupt from the fast-paced nature of the section. Or something. :emote_grin:

The 100% hp sort of thing is necessary; because you may not be in a very good state after the final wave of attackers, and Balthasar is prone to stunning you after the first attack - which would mean you're in a rubbish position and probably going to die immediately unless you know what's coming. I would have loved to put you in as you were, but gameplay denies me that option. And Balthasar doesn't sneak around, he's a very up-front sort of guy as you can probably see from the dialogue...

Hrm, hope that caters for everything... If you've got better ideas on how to explicitly fill in some of these "gaps", then do say so soon, so I can have a try before releasing the next version. Glad you enjoyed it, anyway. :emote_thumbup:

Yes, the new version comes... Various minor bugfixes, Henrik's Rain of Ice has been replaced with something a tiny little bit more appropriate (possibly) and less likely to shred your own forces... But I still want to beef up Pyraeus' final fight a little more, then I'll have to test-run through the whole thing a few times...

And for all those people who dislike the music (*sigh*), it will be disable-able (except the final end-cin music where it is very important) via an escape key menu.

Whew, long speil. *takes a bow*

ragingspeedhorn 06-27-2006 11:11 AM

Congratulations on finally getting approved RDZ!

Werewulf 06-27-2006 11:38 AM


*throws a basket of flowers at the wall*

whoops missed...

Metal_Sonic64 06-27-2006 12:04 PM

Yeah, it's truly a great map that really deserves to be here. Congrats!

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